He's back. Back Again....,

OilCityPickups

skunkwerx said:

So he's knocking out guitars with shoddy craftsmanship, questionable tuning stability and asking over the odds for it... 

Gibsons been doing that for years... 

Perhaps when Gibson were looking for a new CEO they missed a perfect candidate :-)

Philly_Q

OilCityPickups said:

skunkwerx said:

So he's knocking out guitars with shoddy craftsmanship, questionable tuning stability and asking over the odds for it... 

Gibsons been doing that for years... 

Perhaps when Gibson were looking for a new CEO they missed a perfect candidate :-)

I think he'd be more at home in product R&D.

Thinking about it, he must have loved the extra-wide nuts on the 2015 models....

OilCityPickups

Philly_Q said:

OilCityPickups said:

skunkwerx said:

So he's knocking out guitars with shoddy craftsmanship, questionable tuning stability and asking over the odds for it... 

Gibsons been doing that for years... 

Perhaps when Gibson were looking for a new CEO they missed a perfect candidate :-)

I think he'd be more at home in product R&D.

Thinking about it, he must have loved the extra-wide nuts on the 2015 models....

  'Chipolatason'  for the authentically sausage fingered :-)

Am I alone in finding these legions of secretive, sausage fingered guitarists lurking in the shadows rather nightmarish?

TheOtherDennis

I understand why there are those on here who feel uncomfortable with the stick this guy gets on here, as I initially felt the same way. At first, I thought it was just bad and could understand the criticism, but then the criticism got a bit stiff for my personal taste and I started to feel a bit of sympathy.

But he was invited on here to defend himself and get some good advice about how to do it better.

He was extremely rude and dismissive of everyone. His view is that he's the only one who has seen the light and everyone else is an idiot.

When challenged that mass makers of high quality kit do things their way because they've spent decades and millions of quid refining and changing and working with their stuff to get it the way they have, and that they do things in a particular way because their experience and knowledge says that's the best way to do it, then maybe they have a point that he may have missed, he simply laughed and said we were 'sheep' who had been brainwashed. He then started to get just as rude back as anyone here was with him.

At which point all sympathy vanished.

Personally, I will continue to ignore him but if anyone else fancies a pop at him, good luck to you.

(Of course, I may be misremembering how this all panned out, but it's how I recall it, fwiw.)

Philtre

But people are buying his stuff. Why?

OilCityPickups

TheOtherDennis said:

I understand why there are those on here who feel uncomfortable with the stick this guy gets on here, as I initially felt the same way. At first, I thought it was just bad and could understand the criticism, but then the criticism got a bit stiff for my personal taste and I started to feel a bit of sympathy.

But he was invited on here to defend himself and get some good advice about how to do it better.

He was extremely rude and dismissive of everyone. His view is that he's the only one who has seen the light and everyone else is an idiot.

When challenged that mass makers of high quality kit do things their way because they've spent decades and millions of quid refining and changing and working with their stuff to get it the way they have, and that they do things in a particular way because their experience and knowledge says that's the best way to do it, then maybe they have a point that he may have missed, he simply laughed and said we were 'sheep' who had been brainwashed. He then started to get just as rude back as anyone here was with him.

At which point all sympathy vanished.

Personally, I will continue to ignore him but if anyone else fancies a pop at him, good luck to you.

(Of course, I may be misremembering how this all panned out, but it's how I recall it, fwiw.)

That's pretty much the long and the short of it.

Collectively there are hundreds of years of guitar building and repair and modding experience on here, people who took time to offer help ... all of it rejected in a very condescending manner.

Philtre said:

But people are buying his stuff. Why?

Because he aims his listings at beginners: people who read his blurb and take it at face value and know no better.

Sassafras

I once saw Segovia playing and I was struck by how big and fat his fingers were. I can't help thinking how much better his playing would've been if he'd had a Cleartone Conversion guitar.

mbe

Admit it, he's got no competition and his brand is very distinctive. Cleartone Conversions, the alliteration and onomatopeic ring that draws in the curious and the cognoscenti to marvel at the uniqueness of this artisan's mastery.

Poetry in wood and metal that belies the scientific symbiosis of repurposed instruments. Cleartone Conversions, a name that carries with it the positive expectation of blissful transformation. From the mundane to the magnificent, the poor shall be enriched by the unfettered access to every fretted note with precision and purpose.

thumpingrug

TheOtherDennis said:

I understand why there are those on here who feel uncomfortable with the stick this guy gets on here, as I initially felt the same way. At first, I thought it was just bad and could understand the criticism, but then the criticism got a bit stiff for my personal taste and I started to feel a bit of sympathy.

But he was invited on here to defend himself and get some good advice about how to do it better.

He was extremely rude and dismissive of everyone. His view is that he's the only one who has seen the light and everyone else is an idiot.

When challenged that mass makers of high quality kit do things their way because they've spent decades and millions of quid refining and changing and working with their stuff to get it the way they have, and that they do things in a particular way because their experience and knowledge says that's the best way to do it, then maybe they have a point that he may have missed, he simply laughed and said we were 'sheep' who had been brainwashed. He then started to get just as rude back as anyone here was with him.

At which point all sympathy vanished.

Personally, I will continue to ignore him but if anyone else fancies a pop at him, good luck to you.

(Of course, I may be misremembering how this all panned out, but it's how I recall it, fwiw.)

Yep, that's pretty much what happened.  However my point is that this is probably the 4th or 5th time that different threads have started up having a pop at the guy.  Its a form of online bullying and I find it very uncomfortable.  

This forum occasionally shows how supportive it can be of members in trouble  in a way that is frankly stunning, but on other occasions the gang mentality picks away at people and drives them away - its happened on multiple occasions.

Yes he was invited here to defend himself but that was after pages of incredibly harsh comments, so it's no wonder that when he arrived to a barrage of abuse he was on the defensive and fought back.  Was he rude, yes, but rude to an unknown group who had ripped him and his product to sheds.   I think I'd be a pissed off if I was invited to join a group and found myself being ridiculed.   What sort of reaction did anyone expect.

I don't particularly admire what he does but the feedback he gets from purchasers is generally positive so clearly he's doing something right.

And as this is the 4th or 5th time we have been through this, I just though, perhaps this was the time for us to let it go and leave the guy alone.  

TheOtherDennis

thumpingrug said:

And as this is the 4th or 5th time we have been through this, I just though, perhaps this was the time for us to let it go and leave the guy alone.  

As I've said, I have no sympathy with the man at all, but I agree with that.

octatonic

thumpingrug said:

TheOtherDennis said:

I understand why there are those on here who feel uncomfortable with the stick this guy gets on here, as I initially felt the same way. At first, I thought it was just bad and could understand the criticism, but then the criticism got a bit stiff for my personal taste and I started to feel a bit of sympathy.

But he was invited on here to defend himself and get some good advice about how to do it better.

He was extremely rude and dismissive of everyone. His view is that he's the only one who has seen the light and everyone else is an idiot.

When challenged that mass makers of high quality kit do things their way because they've spent decades and millions of quid refining and changing and working with their stuff to get it the way they have, and that they do things in a particular way because their experience and knowledge says that's the best way to do it, then maybe they have a point that he may have missed, he simply laughed and said we were 'sheep' who had been brainwashed. He then started to get just as rude back as anyone here was with him.

At which point all sympathy vanished.

Personally, I will continue to ignore him but if anyone else fancies a pop at him, good luck to you.

(Of course, I may be misremembering how this all panned out, but it's how I recall it, fwiw.)

Yep, that's pretty much what happened.  However my point is that this is probably the 4th or 5th time that different threads have started up having a pop at the guy.  Its a form of online bullying and I find it very uncomfortable.  

This forum occasionally shows how supportive it can be of members in trouble  in a way that is frankly stunning, but on other occasions the gang mentality picks away at people and drives them away - its happened on multiple occasions.

Yes he was invited here to defend himself but that was after pages of incredibly harsh comments, so it's no wonder that when he arrived to a barrage of abuse he was on the defensive and fought back.  Was he rude, yes, but rude to an unknown group who had ripped him and his product to sheds.   I think I'd be a pissed off if I was invited to join a group and found myself being ridiculed.   What sort of reaction did anyone expect.

I don't particularly admire what he does but the feedback he gets from purchasers is generally positive so clearly he's doing something right.

And as this is the 4th or 5th time we have been through this, I just though, perhaps this was the time for us to let it go and leave the guy alone.  

Yeah, I was the one who invited him here to talk about what he's doing.
He was rude but so were 'we'.
I genuinely was trying to figure out what he was on about because what he is doing to guitars is pretty weird.
To say his mods are cack-handed is a massive understatement, as we all know.

There was a part of 'community service' to it- if we could get him to realise what he was doing was a bit wrong then perhaps it would save a newbie (because they are the only people who would buy these) from making a mistake but he wasn't interested in a genuine offer to be advised about the established way to do these jobs.

It is a bit of a 'Dunning Krueger' event- he doesn't know enough to know that what he is doing is completely wrong and the piss was well and truly taken by myself and a bunch of other people.
Fine- I'll admit to that but I also have no intention of hounding the guy- let him make his abominations and hopefully not too many people buy them.

stickyfiddle

Philtre said:

But people are buying his stuff. Why?

Because beginners often find fretting specific strings difficult without muting the adjacent ones, and he sells on the basis that wider spacing makes it easier. I don't doubt that is true to an extent, but only if the rest of the guitar is well setup, which these in most cases are very likely not(!). 

Never mind that many of the standard "all time great" type of guitarists all have pretty big hands - Hendrix, SRV, Gilmour, Mayer, Wes Montgomery, Zakk Wylde, etc etc.

All of us who get beyond the beginner stage learn to deal with a standard size fretboard, but those who aren't there yet may well assume it's a big part of why they're struggling, not realising that *everyone* struggles in the early stages.

OilCityPickups

thumpingrug said:

TheOtherDennis said:

I understand why there are those on here who feel uncomfortable with the stick this guy gets on here, as I initially felt the same way. At first, I thought it was just bad and could understand the criticism, but then the criticism got a bit stiff for my personal taste and I started to feel a bit of sympathy.

But he was invited on here to defend himself and get some good advice about how to do it better.

He was extremely rude and dismissive of everyone. His view is that he's the only one who has seen the light and everyone else is an idiot.

When challenged that mass makers of high quality kit do things their way because they've spent decades and millions of quid refining and changing and working with their stuff to get it the way they have, and that they do things in a particular way because their experience and knowledge says that's the best way to do it, then maybe they have a point that he may have missed, he simply laughed and said we were 'sheep' who had been brainwashed. He then started to get just as rude back as anyone here was with him.

At which point all sympathy vanished.

Personally, I will continue to ignore him but if anyone else fancies a pop at him, good luck to you.

(Of course, I may be misremembering how this all panned out, but it's how I recall it, fwiw.)

Yep, that's pretty much what happened.  However my point is that this is probably the 4th or 5th time that different threads have started up having a pop at the guy.  Its a form of online bullying and I find it very uncomfortable.  

This forum occasionally shows how supportive it can be of members in trouble  in a way that is frankly stunning, but on other occasions the gang mentality picks away at people and drives them away - its happened on multiple occasions.

Yes he was invited here to defend himself but that was after pages of incredibly harsh comments, so it's no wonder that when he arrived to a barrage of abuse he was on the defensive and fought back.  Was he rude, yes, but rude to an unknown group who had ripped him and his product to sheds.   I think I'd be a pissed off if I was invited to join a group and found myself being ridiculed.   What sort of reaction did anyone expect.

I don't particularly admire what he does but the feedback he gets from purchasers is generally positive so clearly he's doing something right.

And as this is the 4th or 5th time we have been through this, I just though, perhaps this was the time for us to let it go and leave the guy alone.  

I would agree completely if we were talking about the man ... but he is a trading entity 'Cleartone Conversions', and as such he invites being treated as another member of the 'trade'. When you become a dealer or a manufacturer or a 'customiser' you must be prepared to be treated somewhat differently to a normal hobbyist who modifies his guitar and then sells it on. Personal attacks have no place in threads like these, but when you put your wares up for sale you open your skill and knowledge to public scrutiny, and you'd best grow a thick skin, because the public aren't always kind.

As other traders on here have found, being defensive and fighting back is not the professional approach. As with running any business you take criticism on the chin and then see how you can run your business better. Sticking your head in the sand and pretending that your work is top notch when it clearly isn't a very sensible or professional approach. I've watched several businesses flounce about on here because someone dared to criticise their products, and I've seen more than one banned for loosing their rag with the Modmins about it.

My own approach is if you are in business, learn to be a businessman ... otherwise stay as a hobbyist.

Strangefan

It amuses me how people here are getting annoyed that this topic keeps coming around yes we will do chappers gibson etc to death, as above he's a business now so deserves everything we can throw at him 

OilCityPickups

Strangefan said:

It amuses me how people here are getting annoyed that this topic keeps coming around yes we will do chappers gibson etc to death, as above he's a business now so deserves everything we can throw at him 

So long as the stuff that gets thrown is confined to products, business methods and pricing. Personal stuff is in my opinion off limits.

Strangefan

OilCityPickups said:

Strangefan said:

It amuses me how people here are getting annoyed that this topic keeps coming around yes we will do chappers gibson etc to death, as above he's a business now so deserves everything we can throw at him 

So long as the stuff that gets thrown is confined to products, business methods and pricing. Personal stuff is in my opinion off limits.

Of course, we're not 12

OilCityPickups

Strangefan said:

OilCityPickups said:

Strangefan said:

It amuses me how people here are getting annoyed that this topic keeps coming around yes we will do chappers gibson etc to death, as above he's a business now so deserves everything we can throw at him 

So long as the stuff that gets thrown is confined to products, business methods and pricing. Personal stuff is in my opinion off limits.

Of course, we're not 12

Er ... have you read threads on here recently? :-) 

Kittyfrisk

Strangefan said:

OilCityPickups said:

Strangefan said:

It amuses me how people here are getting annoyed that this topic keeps coming around yes we will do chappers gibson etc to death, as above he's a business now so deserves everything we can throw at him 

So long as the stuff that gets thrown is confined to products, business methods and pricing. Personal stuff is in my opinion off limits.

Of course, we're not 12

No, we are Legion... 
Edit: I guess context is everything.  Jest withdrawn.

thumpingrug

OilCityPickups said:

thumpingrug said:

TheOtherDennis said:

I understand why there are those on here who feel uncomfortable with the stick this guy gets on here, as I initially felt the same way. At first, I thought it was just bad and could understand the criticism, but then the criticism got a bit stiff for my personal taste and I started to feel a bit of sympathy.

But he was invited on here to defend himself and get some good advice about how to do it better.

He was extremely rude and dismissive of everyone. His view is that he's the only one who has seen the light and everyone else is an idiot.

When challenged that mass makers of high quality kit do things their way because they've spent decades and millions of quid refining and changing and working with their stuff to get it the way they have, and that they do things in a particular way because their experience and knowledge says that's the best way to do it, then maybe they have a point that he may have missed, he simply laughed and said we were 'sheep' who had been brainwashed. He then started to get just as rude back as anyone here was with him.

At which point all sympathy vanished.

Personally, I will continue to ignore him but if anyone else fancies a pop at him, good luck to you.

(Of course, I may be misremembering how this all panned out, but it's how I recall it, fwiw.)

Yep, that's pretty much what happened.  However my point is that this is probably the 4th or 5th time that different threads have started up having a pop at the guy.  Its a form of online bullying and I find it very uncomfortable.  

This forum occasionally shows how supportive it can be of members in trouble  in a way that is frankly stunning, but on other occasions the gang mentality picks away at people and drives them away - its happened on multiple occasions.

Yes he was invited here to defend himself but that was after pages of incredibly harsh comments, so it's no wonder that when he arrived to a barrage of abuse he was on the defensive and fought back.  Was he rude, yes, but rude to an unknown group who had ripped him and his product to sheds.   I think I'd be a pissed off if I was invited to join a group and found myself being ridiculed.   What sort of reaction did anyone expect.

I don't particularly admire what he does but the feedback he gets from purchasers is generally positive so clearly he's doing something right.

And as this is the 4th or 5th time we have been through this, I just though, perhaps this was the time for us to let it go and leave the guy alone.  

I would agree completely if we were talking about the man ... but he is a trading entity 'Cleartone Conversions', and as such he invites being treated as another member of the 'trade'. When you become a dealer or a manufacturer or a 'customiser' you must be prepared to be treated somewhat differently to a normal hobbyist who modifies his guitar and then sells it on. Personal attacks have no place in threads like these, but when you put your wares up for sale you open your skill and knowledge to public scrutiny, and you'd best grow a thick skin, because the public aren't always kind.

As other traders on here have found, being defensive and fighting back is not the professional approach. As with running any business you take criticism on the chin and then see how you can run your business better. Sticking your head in the sand and pretending that your work is top notch when it clearly isn't a very sensible or professional approach. I've watched several businesses flounce about on here because someone dared to criticise their products, and I've seen more than one banned for loosing their rag with the Modmins about it.

My own approach is if you are in business, learn to be a businessman ... otherwise stay as a hobbyist.

Your point is well made.