1x12 or 2x12, that is the question

bigfuzz

Ok I've got a strange day off (not used to this). I've been meaning to get a new amp sorted for portability reasons (may have seen a few of my threads). Anyway, I've not really looked at a decent home-use cab yet. 

The plan would be to run the head through this at home then use the bigger boy stuff at the praccy space/gigs. 

Now, 1x12 or 2x12? I'm not wanting to spend sh*tloads for purely home use.. something which can give me a decent tone at low volumes..? Doesn't take up too much room.. used is best (like speakers broken in, excuse the pun) London based

AlanP

For home use, I can't imagine a 1x12 would be too quiet...

Dave_Mc

2x12 normally sounds "bigger", but not much louder. For home use, unless you want to mix/match speakers, I imagine a 1x12 would do the job.

that being said i play at home and have a bunch of bigger cabs, so it's really up to you.

ICBM

I'd get a fairly large 1x12", rather than the smallest possible size (they can sound boxy), with something like a G12M-25 or G12H-30 depending on what sort of sound you want. Avoid V30s, they don't sound their best at low volume or in small cabinets. I'd probably get a semi-open-back or maybe even a ported cab rather than a simple closed one.

bazxkr

Yeh, a 1x12 will still give you enough to rattle your roof tiles at home but a 2x12 just sounds so much more a fuller/denser sound with better clarity.
A lighter weight 2 x 12 with something like a H&K Tubemeister 18 (1,5 & 18w switchable) could cover both home/out needs with a small portable trolley be a pc of cake & only need the one rig for all. If space an issue get an upright 2x12 instead of horizontal. I know you can just sit a horiz upright but a full length 100x head won't sit on them.
Go spend an hour in a shop A/B the different cabs. Only your own ears can make yr mind up
Whereabouts in London are you ? If you are local to RM5 You are welcome to come and try difference of an amp through a 1x12, & 2 different 2 x 12's ? I have a HB 2 x12 I'm moving on ...more manageable and lighter than the equiv Engl I have by a long way
Cheers
Baz

p90fool

I kind of split the difference, one of my 2x12s only has one speaker in it (a G12-75T). It still sounds like a big 2x12 rather than a boxy 1x12 but was obviously cheaper to load and a fair bit lighter.

I was testing different speakers in it and realised I quite liked it unfinished.

ICBM

p90fool said:

I kind of split the difference, one of my 2x12s only has one speaker in it (a G12-75T). It still sounds like a big 2x12 rather than a boxy 1x12 but was obviously cheaper to load and a fair bit lighter.

I was testing different speakers in it and realised I quite liked it unfinished.

The posh name for that is a "de-tuned ported cabinet" . They do sound very good at lower volume but can sound a bit odd louder, when the reflected sound out of the open hole becomes more obviously out of phase with the speaker.

You can tune them a bit by making a plywood disc to fit the second speaker hole, with a smaller hole in it than the full diameter.

p90fool

ICBM said:

p90fool said:

I kind of split the difference, one of my 2x12s only has one speaker in it (a G12-75T). It still sounds like a big 2x12 rather than a boxy 1x12 but was obviously cheaper to load and a fair bit lighter.

I was testing different speakers in it and realised I quite liked it unfinished.

The posh name for that is a "de-tuned ported cabinet" . They do sound very good at lower volume but can sound a bit odd louder, when the reflected sound out of the open hole becomes more obviously out of phase with the speaker.

You can tune them a bit by making a plywood disc to fit the second speaker hole, with a smaller hole in it than the full diameter.

Ah, forget to mention it's open-backed too, which greatly reduces the "ported" effect.

I have messed around with guitar speakers in ported cheesy disco-type 1x12s before though, and you're right, it does have some weird dead spots at certain frequencies.

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

I'd get a fairly large 1x12", rather than the smallest possible size (they can sound boxy)

Yeah. Though then you're into the dilemma of whether you should just get a 2x12 (though admittedly smaller 2x12s can also sound boxy if you're running them closed-backed)...

bigfuzz

So a large 1x12 with a decent speaker for low volumes... Ideally I'd like something which sounds good at that "edge of breakup" sound, not just high gain?  

So is there any recommendations out there, something around £150...? I'll be planning to keep it for quite a while (whilst i live in a London flat)

ICBM

Palmer 1x12" with G12M-25 Greenback. Decent size too.

http://www.thomann.de/gb/palmer_pcab112gbk.htm

The G112 Vintage http://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_g112vintage.htm is even cheaper, but smaller and you'd probably want to change the V30 for a G12M or a G12H-30… on the other hand, it's insanely cheap, the V30 alone is that much! You could sell the V30 if you don't like it and buy something else.

ChrisMusic

Update to ICBMs G112 Vintage link (which didn't work for me)

http://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_g112vintage.htm

bigfuzz

@icbm @chrismusic thanks for the links. i'll probably not go for the HB. I know from experience with combos (DRRi cab size) it makes a pleasant difference. 

Not heard of Palmer before, looks like a good size. Is that greenback any good? Is it the same as the Ac15c1 greenback? Wasn't a huge fan when I owned one

ChrisMusic

Palmer were on the stand opposite us at the Great British Guitar Show in March, they are owned by Adam Hall Gmbh, and seem pretty well respected.

Their gear sounded good, seems well made, the designer was on the stand and at the same hotel, basically really good people, so I think I would buy their gear if it fitted what I wanted, and that cab looks quite tasty too, it's even got me thinking about an extension cab, and I don't need one (yet).  Burgs (of  pedal demo fame) uses a Palmer for his demos, so that is another endorsement.

bigfuzz

@chrismusic that's a great endorsement for me! I didn't realise Burgs used them either. 

Not sure about the speaker in it.. I have a slight reservation about a 'new' speaker.. the whole "breaking it in before it sounds good" thing. I'll never get the chance to let rip, so i fear the speaker will always be 'like new' ?

Is this a genuine concern?

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

Palmer 1x12" with G12M-25 Greenback. Decent size too.

I emailed palmer way back when they first released those cabs, and they said they were MDF/particleboard (can't remember which exact bits were which, but they weren't ply, at any rate).

I dunno how much difference the whole ply versus mdf/particleboard thing actually makes, but I figure if you're paying enough money to get something which actually is ply, you might as well go with that, since ply is kind of the industry standard for (good) guitar cabs.

Right? )

ChrisMusic

I would have expected MDF on a cab of that price TBH.  It won't have a tough "on the road life" at home (I hope !).  It is a good consistent and dense material IMO, you might be surprised what pro level audio gear gets to benefit from it's properties.

The downsides as I remember are; it is dense and therefore quite heavy in like-for-like replacement, and it "delaminates" under duress, at the cut ends, as the inner is less dense than the outer skins.  For tough use either covering it, or preferably coating it with a polymer skin can make it surprisingly robust.  However the manufacture process for MDF may well have changed, and I could be out of date, especially in these cost cutting times.  Quality ply (i.e. Scandanavian) would probably be a personal preference, but only if I was being massively critical in application spec.

As to the question of breaking guitar speakers in, I have only ever bought second hand units, so I couldn't really pass a valid comment on that, hopefully ICBM or someone more knowledgeable on guitar applications will be able to clarify for us both.

ICBM

Dave_Mc said:

ICBM said:

Palmer 1x12" with G12M-25 Greenback. Decent size too.

I emailed palmer way back when they first released those cabs, and they said they were MDF/particleboard (can't remember which exact bits were which, but they weren't ply, at any rate).

I dunno how much difference the whole ply versus mdf/particleboard thing actually makes, but I figure if you're paying enough money to get something which actually is ply, you might as well go with that, since ply is kind of the industry standard for (good) guitar cabs.

Right? )

Ah… I assumed it was ply, but I'm possibly getting mixed up with the HB ones. Yes, it does make a difference.

ChrisMusic said:

I would have expected MDF on a cab of that price TBH.

Although oddly, the incredibly cheap HB Vintage 112 and 212 - cheaper than the separate retail price of the V30s they contain! - are ply.

ChrisMusic said:

It is a good consistent and dense material IMO, you might be surprised what pro level audio gear gets to benefit from it's properties.

Yes - for hi-fi, studio monitors, and possibly PA cabinets… exactly because it's inert and doesn't resonate or colour the sound. But that's not what you want for guitar and possibly not for bass cabs. Ply just sounds better.

ChrisMusic said:

As to the question of breaking guitar speakers in, I have only ever bought second hand units, so I couldn't really pass a valid comment on that, hopefully ICBM or someone more knowledgeable on guitar applications will be able to clarify for us both.

Some do break in, some more than others, some don't. It seems to be mostly dependent on the edge surround material and whether it's doped. Speakers with either undoped cloth or rubber-type surrounds don't seem to (which applies to almost all hi-fi speakers), those with paper do, especially when doped (most guitar speakers). It might depend a bit on whether the cone itself is more flexible or stiffer too.

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

(a) Ah… I assumed it was ply, but I'm possibly getting mixed up with the HB ones. Yes, it does make a difference.

(b) Although oddly, the incredibly cheap HB Vintage 112 and 212 - cheaper than the separate retail price of the V30s they contain! - are ply.

(a) Yeah that's what I'd assume. I know I always aim for ply, though I haven't got much experience with non-ply (my vht special 6 combo is mdf, but it's such a teeny cab it's hardly a fair test).

(b) Yeah. I haven't seen the 1x12 (though they claim it's ply) but the 2x12 certainly is. "Certainly" assuming that I can competently recognise ply. ) It did look like wood, though, it wasn't painted on the inside.

AbandonMute

Not sure what makers to recommend but another vote for a large, openbacked 1x12 for home use. Be a little bit careful with how loud you run it if your head is over 50w, but if it's just at home I'd imagine you'll be rattling the crockery before that point.

Phil_aka_Pip

The correct answer is BOTH and then a smaller head for home use ...