Oil in paper caps

Danny1969

This came up before on the old forum, Neil from Morgon swore there was a difference 

In terms of in or out the audio path it's possible for different cap's to affect  the tone whever  shunting to earth or in series with the audio but in reality I doubt if anyone could hear it

AxeWieldingBastard

A tech replaced the stock 'fake bees' that came with my R9 and replaced them with some orange drops of different value (wiring and pick ups unchanged).
Made a big difference to the way i play. Went from only using either neck or bridge pup with v & t between 7/10 to playing mostly in the middle posish, v & t set anywhere between 2 & 10.
Dont take anyones word either way- give it a try. You might like it

imalone

Danny1969 said:

This came up before on the old forum, Neil from Morgon swore there was a difference 

In terms of in or out the audio path it's possible for different cap's to affect  the tone whever  shunting to earth or in series with the audio but in reality I doubt if anyone could hear it

I agree with that, if it's connected to the signal chain then it's "in" the audio path.

AxeWieldingBastard said:

A tech replaced the stock 'fake bees' that came with my R9 and replaced them with some orange drops of different value (wiring and pick ups unchanged).
Made a big difference to the way i play. Went from only using either neck or bridge pup with v & t between 7/10 to playing mostly in the middle posish, v & t set anywhere between 2 & 10.
Dont take anyones word either way- give it a try. You might like it

A different value will certainly make a difference! That's what it's there for. Agree with @EdGrip on spragues for the reasons he gave. Wonder if the higher voltage capacitors are more consistent in value due to being physically larger (reducing the effect of manufacturing tolerances), different guitar places sell different size orange drops, seemingly arbitrarily. You tend to pay more for the higher voltage ones, so I think there may be a bit of desire to pay incrementally more to get a 'better' part.

ChrisMusic

TheGuitarWeasel said:   In fairness I'm in the camp that says: if a component makes you feel better ... you will hear a difference because you will be unconsciously be playing better.

Thanks for the wisdom there Ash, many people say I play better - when I am unconscious     :-S

JookyChap

I like them because they look like fireworks.

mart

JookyChap said:

I like them because they look like fireworks.

Hmm. I think you might need to check your wiring!

JookyChap

mart said:

JookyChap said:

I like them because they look like fireworks.

Hmm. I think you might need to check your wiring!

I do regularly, my daughter keeps nicking the caps to make necklaces for her friends...

Neil

JookyChap said:

I like them because they look like fireworks.

Definitely a LOL there. 

imalone

JookyChap said:

I like them because they look like fireworks.

Will be fitting tantalum caps from now on

(Not sure a guitar signal could do that though, though tantalum is very sensitive to reverse voltage.)
Edit: unintentionally did something similar to a TO92 a few weeks ago.

blueskunk

ICBM;246664" said:

They don't affect the tone. At all. Not even the tiniest bit.



If you set up a proper switching test, there's no difference between any cap type as long as the values are the same, at any setting of the tone control. There are also good theoretical reasons why they can't.

But, considering that (as long as you're not paying the sort of prices Gibson were charging) they don't cost much, they are a nice thing to use if you're upgrading a guitar or building one, and I would still use nice caps - not necessarily paper in oil, just ones that are 'appropriate' to the guitar… in the same way as I would use the right style of machinehead keys, knobs, even strap buttons - not because they actually change the sound.

It's also worth remembering that both Fender and Gibson used cheap ceramic caps in the 1960s, and those guitars are now both valuable and good-sounding.

(This applies to guitars - in amps, cap types definitely can and do affect the tone, although not in all locations.)

Thats pretty much what Brian Eastwood told me.

ellangus

Orange drops is is then!

Thanks all

koneguitarist

I use orange drops as they look nice, not for any sonic reasons as the majority of guitarists I know, don't even use the tone control!

Gagaryn

I've got old 50's bumblebees in my Gibson replacing the tiny ceramic caps that were in there originally. I understand that they aren't any better sonically - they do the same job, send a selected frequency set to ground, but they look kewl (when i peer through the f-hole!!!).

FelineGuitars

monoamine said:

hmm
methinks many retailers are already on the "overpriced yet cheap components that make bugger all difference" bandwagon... must be a crazy wide profit margin in that racket!
orange drops or other cheap, consistent caps will do it for me nowadays

Sorry - wrong about RETAILERS doing that 

If they are buying the PIO caps in then they are paying quite a lot for each cap - not just a few pennies more than the cheapo ones, so they are not profiteering. Maybe the manufacturers are, but unlikely the retailer is unless they have a secret source for what they sell.

They will probably be making the same % markup no matter which they sell. 

They may even get a bigger % on cheaper ceramic caps.

We keep the Orange Drop ones in as our base level and yes we do keep the BKP/Jensen ones as part of being a BKP full line stockist

We do fit the Jensens a lot to our custom builds and we like them

We also really like the Orange drops and fit them all the time too - mainly on repair work.

Replacing caps is the price of a round of drinks and if it makes you feel good then it's money well spent, especially if that feel good factor makes you play better

I too was disappointed/disgusted at Gibson's fake bumblebees...simply because it is false representation

LastMantra

Thing is you can say "given the same value" all caps will sound the same, but how often does that happen?

I'd swap an expensive oil/paper out for a cheap "Map's" ceramic if the value was closer to what I wanted. A "cheap ceramic" cap in a guitar should last a lifetime anyway.

I'd say it's more about how the control works than the "tone". How much treble it removes and, therefore, how far you need to turn the knob to remove a given amount of treble.

ICBM

LastMantra said:

Thing is you can say "given the same value" all caps will sound the same, but how often does that happen?

Very often, if you use tighter tolerance ones - 10% or better. You can't hear small differences in the value anyway.

When I did direct-switching testing, there was no audible difference between *any* of the .022uF caps I tried, even though quite a few weren't dead on the spec value. There is a reason why the tolerances are chosen the way they are.

LastMantra

ICBM said:

LastMantra said:

Thing is you can say "given the same value" all caps will sound the same, but how often does that happen?

Very often, if you use tighter tolerance ones - 10% or better. You can't hear small differences in the value anyway.

When I did direct-switching testing, there was no audible difference between *any* of the .022uF caps I tried, even though quite a few weren't dead on the spec value. There is a reason why the tolerances are chosen the way they are.

I get you IC but all I mean is, if you two very tight tolerance caps of two different values but you find that you want something somewhere in the middle then the very wide 40% ceramic might get you there and IMHO be the "better" cap (for the job).

What do you mean "audible difference", what exactly where you testing for? As I said, IMO it's about how the control reacts. Very, very subtle.

ICBM

LastMantra said:

I get you IC but all I mean is, if you two very tight tolerance caps of two different values but you find that you want something somewhere in the middle then the very wide 40% ceramic might get you there and IMHO be the "better" cap (for the job).

What do you mean "audible difference", what exactly where you testing for? As I said, IMO it's about how the control reacts. Very, very subtle.

Yes, certainly if you're comparing cap values at the outer 20% tolerance limits you will hear a difference. I can't remember for certain what all the ones I tested were, I think from memory within 10% at most, although they were not all identical. I tested several different types of all the different constructions I could find, about a dozen caps I think. In fact I was interested to see whether the slightly different values would be audible, as well as the type.

I tested them by choosing two at a time, and wiring them to a mini-switch in the back of the guitar, then comparing by switching on the fly while listening very closely to the amp speaker. I tested them at every numbered setting of the tone control from 10 to 0, and there was no detectable difference at any setting with any combination of caps. I also tested the volume control at all settings with the tone control on 10, 3 (where the fastest change occured) and 0, and again found no differences.

As a control I tested deliberately different values, .01uF and .047uF - only one of each, but there was a clear difference, *just* audible when the tone control was up full... you could hear the slightest change in top-end when you switched it while the note was actually sounding, although I think it would have been very difficult to identify positively with a longer time gap between the two sounds. Obviously it became more noticeable the further the control was turned down, and totally clear when rolled all the way down.

I don't see how the control can 'react' differently if there's no detectable difference at any intermediate setting. The exact position you set it at - since it's a pot, not a switch - is going to make more difference, since if the tone control has a good taper there is a clear difference between all of the numbered positions.

For what it's worth this was all about a whole afternoon's work, but it was worth it to me because it completely settled the question once and for all and removed any possible doubt I had - since I do think there are sometimes very subtle effects that can be heard even when 'theoretically' they shouldn't.

LastMantra

ICBM said:

LastMantra said:

I get you IC but all I mean is, if you two very tight tolerance caps of two different values but you find that you want something somewhere in the middle then the very wide 40% ceramic might get you there and IMHO be the "better" cap (for the job).

What do you mean "audible difference", what exactly where you testing for? As I said, IMO it's about how the control reacts. Very, very subtle.

Yes, certainly if you're comparing cap values at the outer 20% tolerance limits you will hear a difference. I can't remember for certain what all the ones I tested were, I think from memory within 10% at most, although they were not all identical. I tested several different types of all the different constructions I could find, about a dozen caps I think. In fact I was interested to see whether the slightly different values would be audible, as well as the type.

I tested them by choosing two at a time, and wiring them to a mini-switch in the back of the guitar, then comparing by switching on the fly while listening very closely to the amp speaker. I tested them at every numbered setting of the tone control from 10 to 0, and there was no detectable difference at any setting with any combination of caps. I also tested the volume control at all settings with the tone control on 10, 3 (where the fastest change occured) and 0, and again found no differences.

As a control I tested deliberately different values, .01uF and .047uF - only one of each, but there was a clear difference, *just* audible when the tone control was up full... you could hear the slightest change in top-end when you switched it while the note was actually sounding, although I think it would have been very difficult to identify positively with a longer time gap between the two sounds. Obviously it became more noticeable the further the control was turned down, and totally clear when rolled all the way down.

I don't see how the control can 'react' differently if there's no detectable difference at any intermediate setting. The exact position you set it at - since it's a pot, not a switch - is going to make more difference, since if the tone control has a good taper there is a clear difference between all of the numbered positions.

For what it's worth this was all about a whole afternoon's work, but it was worth it to me because it completely settled the question once and for all and removed any possible doubt I had - since I do think there are sometimes very subtle effects that can be heard even when 'theoretically' they shouldn't.

I mean, you might want a subtle effect so moving the pot a fair bit only takes a little bit of treble away or a more drastic effect where a small movement of the pot changes the tone more obviously.

I agree, caps of a very similar value are going to sound...very similar. When I experiment with caps I tend to experiment with ones of varying value. Even if they have the same "given" value, tight ones and loose ones. 

In guitar world tight tolerance isn't always what you want. It's more about getting the cap with the value that works/sounds best. IMHO.

ICBM

Ah, got you! You mean that if the value *is* slightly different - enough for that alone to be audible, even if only just - then the rate of change between different tone knob positions will be different.

Agreed .

I also agree that tight tolerance isn't necessarily desirable - in fact, I often think that if something is desirable for hi-fi or 'proper' electronics, then almost by definition it's the opposite of what you want for guitar .