Which vintage guitar shops are associated with the Harrisons?

jeztone2

Bygone_Tones said:

Seziertisch said:

jeztone2 said:

Bygone_Tones said:

I've seen them operate under various business ID's so you just need to be very vigilant of all vintage gear. Theres a lot of stuff on the second hand market, not being sold by Justin directly but he was the original seller. It seems quite a few people who own Justins old fakes are in denial about them being fake and will take offense if you point it out to them. Just got to be really careful with anything vintage really. Got to know your onions, or you can easily get your fingers burnt.

Exactly I met one of their “Tech” guys at a party in 2001. He spent the 80’s making vintage Strats in Doncaster. Personally I wouldn’t go near a vintage Strat for that exact reason. There must be hundreds of fakes out there, literally hundreds. 

It must have been so much easier back then too, no internet, very little chance of getting caught out. You take a bunch of old Fender serial numbers, ideally from guitars that are either in another part of the world or no longer in existence, find out what they are supposed to be i.e. sunburst body with rosewood board etc. and away you go.

@jeztone2 I heard a similar story just a couple of years ago, that he has an employee who's full time job it is to "artificially age stuff". This was only around 2015 or so.

@seziertisch, yes they had it easy pre-internet. The problem is/was the reference books people were using had information in it submitted by the Harrisons. They are credited in several books as contributers. Doyle's History of Marshall book is one of them. eg any Marshall with brown pinstripe grill material are likely to be lash ups rather than extremely rare and original as stated in the book. It is known the Harrisons bought a roll of it. I've yet to see a brown pinstripe Marshall that looks legit, but I have seen a few very dodgy ones.

Oh I think they had more than one. This guy worked there when they were in Doncaster. I bet he wasn’t the first or last. 

ten77guitar

The more I hear about them the more I think they’re a couple of evil pricks. It’s not just the ripping people off, it’s the shitting all over the history. 

NelsonP

KKJale said:

^ Step Into My World... and I've got the promo CD single with '#1' belatedly added via a sticker!

Wis awarded!

shugz

Great band - Andy Bell a very underrated player. 

Hurling_Fruitmig

I’ve been away from the world of guitars for about thirty years so I somehow managed to miss the saga of the Harrisons. I remember browsing in the Leeds and Doncaster shops in the 80s, but this probably explains how the former ended up part of a hotel.

GuyR

ten77guitar said:

The more I hear about them the more I think they’re a couple of evil pricks. It’s not just the ripping people off, it’s the shitting all over the history. 

I'm a little surprised that any customer would consider doing business with someone that has received a serious criminal conviction in the course of their work. Particularly with the level of publicity involved, the specialised and geeky nature of the vintage market and the substantial sums of money involved. 

I agree that it seems a great shame that a market which holds such potential for pleasure and satisfaction has been irrevocably polluted and sullied.

GuyR

jeztone2 said:

Bygone_Tones said:

Seziertisch said:

jeztone2 said:

Bygone_Tones said:

I've seen them operate under various business ID's so you just need to be very vigilant of all vintage gear. Theres a lot of stuff on the second hand market, not being sold by Justin directly but he was the original seller. It seems quite a few people who own Justins old fakes are in denial about them being fake and will take offense if you point it out to them. Just got to be really careful with anything vintage really. Got to know your onions, or you can easily get your fingers burnt.

Exactly I met one of their “Tech” guys at a party in 2001. He spent the 80’s making vintage Strats in Doncaster. Personally I wouldn’t go near a vintage Strat for that exact reason. There must be hundreds of fakes out there, literally hundreds. 

It must have been so much easier back then too, no internet, very little chance of getting caught out. You take a bunch of old Fender serial numbers, ideally from guitars that are either in another part of the world or no longer in existence, find out what they are supposed to be i.e. sunburst body with rosewood board etc. and away you go.

@jeztone2 I heard a similar story just a couple of years ago, that he has an employee who's full time job it is to "artificially age stuff". This was only around 2015 or so.

@seziertisch, yes they had it easy pre-internet. The problem is/was the reference books people were using had information in it submitted by the Harrisons. They are credited in several books as contributers. Doyle's History of Marshall book is one of them. eg any Marshall with brown pinstripe grill material are likely to be lash ups rather than extremely rare and original as stated in the book. It is known the Harrisons bought a roll of it. I've yet to see a brown pinstripe Marshall that looks legit, but I have seen a few very dodgy ones.

Oh I think they had more than one. This guy worked there when they were in Doncaster. I bet he wasn’t the first or last. 

Would a Fender Doncaster not be an appropriate name for a bogus instrument?

Ddigger

^^That gets my vote for 'post of the year'.

HarrySeven

GuyR said:

I'm a little surprised that any customer would consider doing business with someone that has received a serious criminal conviction in the course of their work.

^This. I’ve puzzled over the same thing numerous times. How on earth are they still in business?

Hurling_Fruitmig

HarrySeven said:

GuyR said:

I'm a little surprised that any customer would consider doing business with someone that has received a serious criminal conviction in the course of their work.

^This. I’ve puzzled over the same thing numerous times. How on earth are they still in business?

Me too. It's mind boggling given their previous. I wouldn't believe a word they said.

p90fool

HarrySeven said:

GuyR said:

I'm a little surprised that any customer would consider doing business with someone that has received a serious criminal conviction in the course of their work.

^This. I’ve puzzled over the same thing numerous times. How on earth are they still in business?

I honestly think it's just wishful thinking, and that some people see a guitar they love the look of and deliberately choose to believe it's genuine because they desperately want it to be, and that the Harrisons' criminal past is behind them. 

There is (or at least was) a totally complicit print industry who not only carry their ads but even feature guitars from them from time to time.

I have a copy of Guitarist magazine with a full feature on Music Ground with a "look at this treasure trove!" vibe to it, and a two page ad in the same issue, long after they were first convicted for fraud. 

The music press should really take a good look at themselves over the vintage fakery market, a lot of it is down to them not giving a shit where their ad revenue comes from. 

impmann

TBH, they weren't alone in the 1980s for making "vintage" guitars. I visited a workshop in Central London in about 1989 (no longer there, I hasten to point out) where I spied a back room containing  some interesting looking guitars... so I was nosey and found out that they were "making replicas for famous musicians so that they could take the right looking guitars on tour, leaving their valuable vintage Gibsons at home". 
They were taking current model Gibsons and giving them a vintage makeover. They were indistinguishable (to a young viewer like me) from the real deal. They also had a line in building 'vintage' Strats out of crates of Schecter/ESP import parts (remember them?)... all beautifully finished and aged. I remember seeing bridge plates lying on the flat roof out the back being aged - basically going rusty in the rain. I later saw a distinctive guitar I'd seen in that back room in one of the London shops being sold as the real thing...

Thing is, once a guitar has passed through a few hands, has been played a bit and has seen a bit of extra life, its going to be even more difficult to spot these. plus they now have the 'provenance' of being sold a few times. 

There a lot of charlatons in the vintage guitar world - and also a LOT of bullshit too. Unless you absolutely know the provenance, there is a high likelihood of it being a fake or at best a clever refinish - there were *never* as many original Custom Colour Fenders around years ago as there are today, for example and such colours hide a multitude of sins.

timmypix

As someone fairly new to this side of the guitar world - how on earth would someone go about working out if a guitar is genuine or a Harrison fake, if it's presented with good intentions?

ten77guitar

timmypix said:

As someone fairly new to this side of the guitar world - how on earth would someone go about working out if a guitar is genuine or a Harrison fake, if it's presented with good intentions?

Exactly. Unless you know the entire history of a guitar you can’t be 100% sure. Some fakes are more obvious than others but even so-called experts can get duped.

ICBM

timmypix said:

As someone fairly new to this side of the guitar world - how on earth would someone go about working out if a guitar is genuine or a Harrison fake, if it's presented with good intentions?

With a lot of research, inherent scepticism and unwillingness to believe 'convenient' explanations of discrepancies, and the help of an expert who has handled many original examples, preferably from before the large-scale faking started.

"The factory sometimes did that sort of thing" is one of the biggest traps for the willing believer when a discrepancy is noticed. It may occasionally be true, but usually it's because it's a sign that it's not what it's claimed to be...

To all intents and purposes it's become the equivalent of the art market. Unless you've got a cast-iron trail back from the current owner to whoever bought it new, all bets are off and you're going to have to rely on detective work.

ten77guitar

Also, I think it was Joe Bonamassa who made a valid point along the lines of if you’re not prepared to accept the risk that the vintage guitar you’re buying could turn out to be a fake (and hence worthless) then don’t buy it. Easy for him to say as a multi-millionaire you might say but that’s kind of the point.

Seziertisch

I'd love to see a thread with an expert dissection/comparison between a real vintage guitar and a fake. Though I guess having this kind of information readily available make it easier for fakers to make better fakes.

guitars4you

ICBM said:

timmypix said:

As someone fairly new to this side of the guitar world - how on earth would someone go about working out if a guitar is genuine or a Harrison fake, if it's presented with good intentions?

With a lot of research, inherent scepticism and unwillingness to believe 'convenient' explanations of discrepancies, and the help of an expert who has handled many original examples, preferably from before the large-scale faking started.

"The factory sometimes did that sort of thing" is one of the biggest traps for the willing believer when a discrepancy is noticed. It may occasionally be true, but usually it's because it's a sign that it's not what it's claimed to be...

To all intents and purposes it's become the equivalent of the art market. Unless you've got a cast-iron trail back from the current owner to whoever bought it new, all bets are off and you're going to have to rely on detective work.

And remember 'the illusion of knowledge is a very powerful tool' - Be it supplied by a dealer or a private seller - Some sellers have a very persuasive way of convincing you all is kosher

GuyR

I have little knowledge of the US vintage guitar trade, but have considered that alternative. Taking as read the hazards of buying without having seen an instrument first hand, would it be reasonable to expect the risk of misrepresentation to be similar to the UK?

mbe

If you see "Fedner" on the headstock, that's a dead giveaway it's not genuine.