Mixing - fancy speakers vs ear buds

fastonebaz

Many consumers of Fb and YouTube videos will be using crappy ear bud type headphones. 

I've had varied results mixing audio on decent studio monitors vs ear buds and ultimately realised what I'm aiming for is a decent sound on ear buds.  Thus I often don't use my studio monitors much now.  Obvs I'm an amateur not a pro and my target audience is the general fb and YouTube listeners. 

Wondering what the pros do these days.  Does mixing on super studio monitors end up with a good mix on average ear buds?

thegummy

All earbuds don't sound the same so if you mixed specifically for one pair, it would only be people listening using the same ones that would theoretically hear it as you hear it.

The reason mixes are done on speakers that are made specifically for mixing on is that they're made to be as flat response as possible. So when the mix sounds right on flat monitors it "averages out" the sound to translate to a variety of platforms.

So if someone is listening to cheap earbuds that are very trebbly with not much bass - the mix that sounded right on flat monitors will sound similar to other pro mixes do on those cheap earbuds, it'll be what the listener is used to. Whereas if you mixed on those you might heavily boost the bass so it sounds better on those earbuds but then anyone listening to a normal hifi that has a good bass response, it will sound over the top bass heavy.

Even if you only cared about ear buds and were willing to completely sacrifice any other playback device, the same would apply because of the variance of the different earbuds.

Whistler

fastonebaz said:

Wondering what the pros do these days.

First of all they tune the studio's control room (by measuring its acoustic response and installing acoustic treatment). Then they do what thegummy explained in his second paragraph.

Winny_Pooh

Side note: If you mix for "what sounds good to consumers" then remember that most consumers barely have an idea of what constitutes sound quality.

The idea of using different listening methods is to see if your mix(as good ones do) is balanced in volume and frequency and can survive all the shit reproduction methods out there. Most headphones have big frequency dips and peaks, so on one pair you may easily miss glaring pokey frequencies that would be obvious on a nice set of speakers. 
In practice most pro mixers use crappy references like mini speakers to tune balance issues like the lead vocal volume vs drums etc. By that time eq issues are largely solved. 

Musicwolf

I use the analogy of a painter (artist) requiring strong, natural, light in their studio.  Even though their work may end up in a room with artificial lighting they have no control over this.  If they were to use artificial light with say a reddish hue whilst they painted but the work wash displayed in a room where the light has a bluish tint then it will look very strange.

Achieving a truly flat frequency response in a typical home studio is a near impossibility (unless you have lots of space and a serious budget) so the compromise is to listen on as many different systems as possible (the ‘system’ includes the room, it’s not just a case of having alternative monitors in the same room).  Most of the problems occur in the lower frequencies so I tend to filter out a lot of the bottom end below what my monitors can reproduce.

And before you ask.  No, you cannot compensate for the room by simply using the EQ.  You can do much to achieve a better result through the correct room layout and with carefully placed broadband absorbers (easy enough to make) but ‘flat’?  Time to call in the Consultants.

octatonic

Mixing with earbuds is like trying to paint a house through the letterbox.

Bod

Musicwolf said:

I use the analogy of a painter (artist) requiring strong, natural, light in their studio.  Even though their work may end up in a room with artificial lighting they have no control over this.  If they were to use artificial light with say a reddish hue whilst they painted but the work wash displayed in a room where the light has a bluish tint then it will look very strange.

Perfectly put, and I'm banking that analogy for use another time  

fastonebaz

Great, thanks for the info all. Makes sense.   What I do in practise is thr majority of mixing in my monitors, then try a couple of different reference headphones and ear buds and if it sounds ok on those then go with it. 

octatonic

fastonebaz said:

Great, thanks for the info all. Makes sense.   What I do in practise is thr majority of mixing in my monitors, then try a couple of different reference headphones and ear buds and if it sounds ok on those then go with it. 

Yes that is the way.
Car stereo is a staple too.
I also use Sonos now too.

prowla

Yep - I'd use the earbuds as a check/validation, rather than the source of truth.

Incidentally, I have Etymotics ones, which have been described as like having music directly connected to your brain.

thegummy

octatonic said:

fastonebaz said:

Great, thanks for the info all. Makes sense.   What I do in practise is thr majority of mixing in my monitors, then try a couple of different reference headphones and ear buds and if it sounds ok on those then go with it. 

Yes that is the way.
Car stereo is a staple too.
I also use Sonos now too.

Car stereo for sure, so useful.

If you're anything like me you'll be very used to hearing all sorts of music at relatively loud volumes where you can feel the bass etc. so any big mistakes in the mix should jump out immediately.

PolarityMan

Id have thought that there are areas you jsut cant hear accurately through ear buds so translation in the low end would be pretty abysmal. I have to use decent quality headphones (beyer DT 880s) and I still struggle, even doing things like using pro-q2 to isolate below 100hz.

If I could I would def use montitors all the time and even through my shure 215s I dont think my mix would sound good.

In fact I know it doesnt because I have use my IEMs to rough out stuff in band rpactice and when I get it home its all out of whack.

I would like to know if the empire ears claims that they are IEMS you can mix through are true though. 

thegummy

PolarityMan said:

Id have thought that there are areas you jsut cant hear accurately through ear buds so translation in the low end would be pretty abysmal. I have to use decent quality headphones (beyer DT 880s) and I still struggle, even doing things like using pro-q2 to isolate below 100hz.

If I could I would def use montitors all the time and even through my shure 215s I dont think my mix would sound good.

In fact I know it doesnt because I have use my IEMs to rough out stuff in band rpactice and when I get it home its all out of whack.

I would like to know if the empire ears claims that they are IEMS you can mix through are true though. 

With any monitoring system, the most important thing is knowing it and how it translates to other systems. So even if something was good for mixing through, if someone just tries to mix on them without actually knowing exactly how things should sound on them, it's probably not going to work.

It's really common for mix engineers to insist on their specific favourite speakers when they're mixing in another studio - even though the studio will have high quality speakers in their own right (that other engineers may prefer) it's all about familiarity. When someone's used the same system all day, every day for many years, they're used to something sounding a specific way when it's going to translate well.

P.S. I don't mean to direct this question specifically to you, but how come so many people refer to headphones as the model name with an "s" on the end? Quite a strange but very common quirk.

PolarityMan

I get the knowing you system thing but on ear buds you jsut cant hear certain parts of the frequency spectrum so theres nothing to "know" really well. 

Musicwolf

thegummy said

P.S. I don't mean to direct this question specifically to you, but how come so many people refer to headphones as the model name with an "s" on the end? Quite a strange but very common quirk.

I’m guessing it’s because headphones are referred to in the plural, although good luck trying to buy a single one.

I agree that you need to get to know your monitors, which ever you use.

thegummy

PolarityMan said:

I get the knowing you system thing but on ear buds you jsut cant hear certain parts of the frequency spectrum so theres nothing to "know" really well. 

The old style ear buds that just sit in the ear like the ones from the old Walkmans etc. don't have any low end but ever since they figured out to include the big rubber part that actually seals the ear canal, even cheap ones have plenty of sub bass.

I once had a pair of Etymotic Research earphones that did come with both plastic and foam covers that were meant to seal the ear canal and they were pretty expensive and supposed to be high end but there was barely any bass at all from them, I hated them - worse earphones of any kind I've ever had by far.

Whereas the ones I have just for listening to music while out walking etc. are only 30 quid but have loads of bass and subs.

p90fool

Check your mix on anything that's it's likely to be consumed on. 

It can work both ways, you can have for example a great sounding bass guitar in a band mix on your studio monitors which totally disappears on a USB powered laptop extension speaker, or one which totally flubs out the mix on Beats by Dre ear buds or in a chavmobile but sounds great at home on a more linear system.

There's a lot of educated guesswork involved as music is consumed in so many different ways these days, so every mix has to be some sort of compromise. 

Danny1969

I always found buds useless for mixing or even checking a mix. Never had much luck with headphones either. I was never that good using just one set of speakers so in the studio I used NS10's to set the vocal level and a large set of speakers .. can't remember the brand to get the bass right as NS10 have very little response below 70Hz or so. For social media mixes which we assumed listeners would use laptops for we mixed into laptop speakers ..trying to get things like bass and kick audible in speakers that couldn't produce anything below  150Hz or so. 

One trick I found useful is to listen to your mix at all very different volume levels ...... move away from the source as well ... does it still stand up when you back away to the door etc. 

thegummy

I think it's worth keeping in mind that anyone who cares about hearing bass and low end won't be listening on laptop speakers and those who are won't be hearing it on any records.

And most people don't really care about the sound quality, they only care about the song - especially true for people who are happy to listen on limited systems.

When I'm checking mixes on earbuds etc. I'm not making subtle EQ tweaks, I'm just making sure it doesn't sound weird compared to other songs on those. Obviously after all these years it rarely will.

Something I hate about phone speakers etc. as a bass player is that I'll send people a video of me playing bass but if they listen through the phone speaker it will be practically inaudible lol.

Just have to accept that for some people, not everything will be heard. If there was some low bass line that was actually really important to the song I'd be looking at MaxxBass to make it audible for more people but I'd generally avoid having bass parts that the song relies on.

PolarityMan

thegummy said:

PolarityMan said:

I get the knowing you system thing but on ear buds you jsut cant hear certain parts of the frequency spectrum so theres nothing to "know" really well. 

The old style ear buds that just sit in the ear like the ones from the old Walkmans etc. don't have any low end but ever since they figured out to include the big rubber part that actually seals the ear canal, even cheap ones have plenty of sub bass.

I once had a pair of Etymotic Research earphones that did come with both plastic and foam covers that were meant to seal the ear canal and they were pretty expensive and supposed to be high end but there was barely any bass at all from them, I hated them - worse earphones of any kind I've ever had by far.

Whereas the ones I have just for listening to music while out walking etc. are only 30 quid but have loads of bass and subs.

Yeah I mean I have shure 215s and some KZ's and while they have some bass certainly you cant really tell whats going on accurately. I mean I'll EQ a kick for example at band practice on our PA then listen to the recording back and it will sound totally different when I listen back at home. 

Musicwolf

thegummy said:

And most people don't really care about the sound quality, they only care about the song

Very true.  There’s a tendency to overestimate the importance of the mix or the minutiae of the arrangement when what really matters is the song and the performance.