String Tension

Kebabkid

Can someone explain it to me?

Based on my past guitar ownership, I believe I've felt most comfortable on a PRS 22 fretter with 9.5 or 10 gauge strings. However, I'm more a Superstrat guy for sounds (SSH) and stylings and now own and play a modified 21 fret Robert Cray hardtail and 22 fret trem-equipped Tyler.

How come the string tension on my guitars always seems taught, making the B and E hard to bend, yet I play similar guitars that belong to friends, and most of those are strung with 10s and even 11s, and there's no issue.

Scale lengths? How many springs on the trem etc but one's a hardtail or how I string my guitars (normal way)??

I'd love to play 10s but 9.5's are fine as long as I can be in standard tuning and have the slinky feel you get when you tune down half a step to Eb.

I pulled the pad away from the nail on my index finger this weekend playing the bendy solos from 'Hotel California'

soma1975

Try Pyramid strings. Their Nickel Classics has less tension so 11s feel like 10s etc. Also a good setup can make your guitars feel a lot slinkier and easier to play. 

Kebabkid

Thanks Soma and I've never heard of these and they sound interesting and Tone quest rate them for string bending, a slinky feel and longevity.

Both guitars are set up well and have had some attention in the last 9 mths. Possibly a better cut/new nut might help, but I don't know about these things and obviously, a luthier casting an eye over them would be good. Alas, my guy for years has been Charlie Chandler but at the moment, I can't get to him due to Covid-19 and he's probably shut.

I just thought I'd see what people's thoughts on it are and your string one is a good start
Incidentally, I use D'addario 9.5s and I've tried the Paradigm and other variants and didn't like them at all. Thomastiks aren't bad. 

soma1975

Well I dare say Chandler knows how to set up a guitar! So different strings it is. 

Musicwolf

In terms of tension.  If the same make / gauge of strings were used on two guitars of different scale lengths then the tension would be lower on the shorter scale guitar in order to achieve the same pitch.  PRS typically have a scale length of 25” vs 25.5” for a Strat.

skullfunkerry

Musicwolf said:

In terms of tension.  If the same make / gauge of strings were used on two guitars of different scale lengths then the tension would be lower on the shorter scale guitar in order to achieve the same pitch.  PRS typically have a scale length of 25” vs 25.5” for a Strat.

As an example of what @Musicwolf said: I mostly tune to drop C (C G C F A D), and when I was gigging all my guitars were Gibson scale length and I used 11s. Now all my guitars are Fender scale length (3/4" longer) and I use 10s, which feel about the same as the 11s did on my other guitars.

With regard to string gauge, don't fall into the trap of "I'm not a real man if I don't play heavy strings". There's a lot less of that around these days, and also videos suggesting that thinner strings actually sound better in some cases. Using strings that you find uncomfortably heavy can actually cause injury... and apparently before he died, Stevie Ray Vaughan (the archetypal heavy string user in a lot of people's minds) was thinking about going down to lighter strings

Kebabkid

9's are too thin for me for both rhythm and lead and I'm actually fine bending 10s and 11s when the tension is right (my PRS DGT had 11s and was perfect). 9.5s should work for me

Musicwolf

I used to flip-flop between 9's and 10's but I've recently started to move more and more of my guitars to Hybrids (9 - 46)

https://ernieball.co.uk/guitar-strings/electric-guitar-strings/slinky-nickel-wound-electric-guitar-strings/6-string#2222

jaymenon

Kebabkid said:

Can someone explain it to me?

Based on my past guitar ownership, I believe I've felt most comfortable on a PRS 22 fretter with 9.5 or 10 gauge strings. However, I'm more a Superstrat guy for sounds (SSH) and stylings and now own and play a modified 21 fret Robert Cray hardtail and 22 fret trem-equipped Tyler.

How come the string tension on my guitars always seems taught, making the B and E hard to bend, yet I play similar guitars that belong to friends, and most of those are strung with 10s and even 11s, and there's no issue.

Scale lengths? How many springs on the trem etc but one's a hardtail or how I string my guitars (normal way)??

I'd love to play 10s but 9.5's are fine as long as I can be in standard tuning and have the slinky feel you get when you tune down half a step to Eb.

I pulled the pad away from the nail on my index finger this weekend playing the bendy solos from 'Hotel California'

I have pondered this on a number of occasions. Here are my thoughts, for what they are worth:

Scale length definitely makes a difference (the longer the scale length, the tighter any given string needs to be.

Tremolo - no real difference. When you bend a string, the bridge does move and the other strings do relax. You do however need to increase the tension on your “sounding“ bending string until it reaches the correct tension to give you the note you are reaching for. And that is constant, whether your bridge is fixed or a tremolo. The amplitude of your string bend (the distance by which you need to bend a string to attain a certain rise of pitch) will however, be higher with a tremolo bridge.

Fret height obviously makes a significant difference, higher frets being easier to bend with. Smooth frets too...

Nut slot height: makes a difference to bends at the lower frets. Place a capo at the first fret - if your guitar is now significantly easier to play, then the nut slots are too high...

Action - measured at the 12 fret, modified most prominently by raising or lowering the bridge/saddles. Even minor adjustments can change perceived string tension dramatically.

Equally, the arc relief - adjusted with the truss rod.

So assuming your nut slots are cut to the perfect height:

1. Start lowering your string saddles, whilst making three and four semitone bends at the 15th fret. Once your bends start ‘choking’ raise the saddles very slightly.

2. Tighten your truss rod (hopefully at the headstock), until you start to get buzz at the lower frets - then loosen very slightly. Plenty of Internet resources how to use your string, fretted at the 1st and 15th frets, as a straight edge.

You’ll then have the optimum set up - for your playing style.

Bottom line: find a good guitar technician who will set up your guitar optimally - for your playing style. Then learn how to tweak / fine tune things to make it absolutely perfect for you.

I hope that makes sense...

guitarmangler

What are the frets like compared to the other guitars? I find that if a guitars frets have a very narrow crown, they bend easier and the intonation is better. Harder to keep the crown going on regular frets, but will  stainless steel and gold frets are excellent for keeping their shape. 

Also, clean/polish the frets with Peek. It makes a massive difference.
 DGT had jescar (harder than the Dunlop equivalents)  version of 6100, and is a 25” scale length. 

Kebabkid

Well, I've compared the 2 guitars and they are so similar apart from the number of frets and the frets are in good condition and don't have wear or need levelling:-

Fender Robert Cray (MIM)                Tyler Classic (Japan)   
Hardtail                                                  Gotoh 501 Trem with 3 springs
21 Frets nickel                                       22 Frets silver nickel
Medium Jumbo                                      Wide Tall
Scale Length 25.5                                 Scale Length 25.5
Radius 9.5"                                            Radius 9.5"

If I liked the feel of PRS guitars, they're a 25" scale length and usually a 10" radius. Is that .5" in scale length going to make a big difference and be that noticeable?

Other guitars I've really loved the feel of and don't find a tension issue with, even with a thicker gauge set of strings, are EBMM guitars, namely the Albert Lee and Silhouette (HSH) hardtail and they have the same scale length as mine and aren't too dissimilar in other aspects.

Excuse the questions but I don't know much on these type of details and yep. It does need looking at by a luthier

jaymenon

Well, I've compared the 2 guitars and they are so similar apart from the number of frets and the frets are in good condition and don't have wear or need levelling:-

Fender Robert Cray (MIM)                Tyler Classic (Japan)   
Hardtail                                                  Gotoh 501 Trem with 3 springs
21 Frets nickel                                       22 Frets silver nickel
Medium Jumbo                                      Wide Tall
Scale Length 25.5                                 Scale Length 25.5
Radius 9.5"                                            Radius 9.5"

If I liked the feel of PRS guitars, they're a 25" scale length and usually a 10" radius. Is that .5" in scale length going to make a big difference and be that noticeable?

Other guitars I've really loved the feel of and don't find a tension issue with, even with a thicker gauge set of strings, are EBMM guitars, namely the Albert Lee and Silhouette (HSH) hardtail and they have the same scale length as mine and aren't too dissimilar in other aspects.

Excuse the questions but I don't know much on these type of details and yep. It does need looking at by a luthier

What you haven't mentioned (in terns of comparable parameters between your to guitars) are

1. Arc relief
2. Action at 12th fret
3. Actual height of the frets (1.2mm? 1.3mm? 1.4mm)
4. Your nut slots height

For instance, if action of the 1st string at the 12th fret is 2.0mm

If you lower that to 1.6mm - that's only 0.4mm lower.

But that's a whopping 20% lower - and will immeasurably transform the playability of the guitar.

Scale length

1st string @ 25.5" scale   = 17.8lbs
1st string @ 25.0" scale   = 17.1lbs
1st string @ 24.75" scale = 16.8lbs

So scale length makes a big difference.

Optimising your set up will make a huge, huge difference - if your guitar tech knows what he/she is doing (i.e. someone who understands the physics / mathematics of stringed instruments, not just a guitarist who thinks he can 'have a bash' at it).

Does that make sense?

Kebabkid

jaymenon said:

Well, I've compared the 2 guitars and they are so similar apart from the number of frets and the frets are in good condition and don't have wear or need levelling:-

Fender Robert Cray (MIM)                Tyler Classic (Japan)   
Hardtail                                                  Gotoh 501 Trem with 3 springs
21 Frets nickel                                       22 Frets silver nickel
Medium Jumbo                                      Wide Tall
Scale Length 25.5                                 Scale Length 25.5
Radius 9.5"                                            Radius 9.5"

If I liked the feel of PRS guitars, they're a 25" scale length and usually a 10" radius. Is that .5" in scale length going to make a big difference and be that noticeable?

Other guitars I've really loved the feel of and don't find a tension issue with, even with a thicker gauge set of strings, are EBMM guitars, namely the Albert Lee and Silhouette (HSH) hardtail and they have the same scale length as mine and aren't too dissimilar in other aspects.

Excuse the questions but I don't know much on these type of details and yep. It does need looking at by a luthier

What you haven't mentioned (in terns of comparable parameters between your to guitars) are

1. Arc relief
2. Action at 12th fret
3. Actual height of the frets (1.2mm? 1.3mm? 1.4mm)
4. Your nut slots height

For instance, if action of the 1st string at the 12th fret is 2.0mm

If you lower that to 1.6mm - that's only 0.4mm lower.

But that's a whopping 20% lower - and will immeasurably transform the playability of the guitar.

Scale length

1st string @ 25.5" scale   = 17.8lbs
1st string @ 25.0" scale   = 17.1lbs
1st string @ 24.75" scale = 16.8lbs

So scale length makes a big difference.

Optimising your set up will make a huge, huge difference - if your guitar tech knows what he/she is doing (i.e. someone who understands the physics / mathematics of stringed instruments, not just a guitarist who thinks he can 'have a bash' at it).

Does that make sense?

Completely @jaymenon - thanks so much for setting it out like that.

Charlie Chandler knows his stuff and also uses a Plek machine and I'll just have to wait for the more important issue of this pandemic to pass and all to get back to being safe and relatively normal.

Much appreciated

Voxman

It's odd. I have a 2009 USA Standard Fender Stratocaster with trem, a 1988 USA Fender Telecaster Standard, and an original 1969 Fender Stretocaster hardtail. The scale length is the same for each, ie 25.5" and they are all string through body. The newer Strat and Telecaster have the same string tension and are very comfortable to play with D'addario 009 to 042s. 

However, the string tension on my 69 Strat fitted with the same strings is noticeably stiffer tension making bending and general fretting a bit harder and for the life of me I can't figure out why. Hardtail can't be the reason because my Telecaster is of course hardtail. But on my 69 strat the 009s on the 69 feel like 10's. (I'm seriously thinking of trying 008s with it.). Action on all my guitars are low.  

in fact, I've just measured the scale length on both Strats and the 69 saddle position means it's actually 1/8" shorter than the 2009!  Anyone got any thoughts as to why the tension on the 69 is tighter? 

(The 69 has 21 frets, the other two have 22 frets - but I can't think that would make any difference as the scale length is the same? ) 

Strat54

Voxman said:

It's odd. I have a 2009 USA Standard Fender Stratocaster with trem, a 1988 USA Fender Telecaster Standard, and an original 1969 Fender Stretocaster hardtail. The scale length is the same for each, ie 25.5" and they are all string through body. The newer Strat and Telecaster have the same string tension and are very comfortable to play with D'addario 009 to 042s. 

However, the string tension on my 69 Strat fitted with the same strings is noticeably stiffer tension making bending and general fretting a bit harder and for the life of me I can't figure out why. Hardtail can't be the reason because my Telecaster is of course hardtail. But on my 69 strat the 009s on the 69 feel like 10's. (I'm seriously thinking of trying 008s with it.). Action on all my guitars are low.  

in fact, I've just measured the scale length on both Strats and the 69 saddle position means it's actually 1/8" shorter than the 2009!  Anyone got any thoughts as to why the tension on the 69 is tighter? 

(The 69 has 21 frets, the other two have 22 frets - but I can't think that would make any difference as the scale length is the same? ) 

Fretboard radius. The newer guitars are a more bend friendly 9.5" to the 69's 7.25

Musicwolf

Yes, I agree.  Probably something like neck radius giving a different 'feel', could also be the action.  If the strings are the same make and gauge, the scale lengths the same and the guitars tuned to the same pitch then the string tension should be qual across both guitars.  It goes to show that there’s more to have a guitar feels than just tension.

Headphones

I suggest the apparent tension is as much about the force needed to depress or bend the string.

So things like action count too.

Similarly the amount of string beyond the nut/bridge to the tuner/anchor will affect the amount of string that needs to deform nad will thus affect the feel too.

jaymenon

Musicwolf said:

Yes, I agree.  Probably something like neck radius giving a different 'feel', could also be the action.  If the strings are the same make and gauge, the scale lengths the same and the guitars tuned to the same pitch then the string tension should be qual across both guitars.

Only if the following parameters are identical.
Nut slot heights
Fingerboard radius
Fret size / height
Arc relief
Action

..and there may well be more.

Voxman

I forgot to mention that the maple cap board's original 7.25 radius was modified to 9.5 to make it more comfortable for bends so neck radius isn't really a factor.

Musicwolf

jaymenon said:

Musicwolf said:

Yes, I agree.  Probably something like neck radius giving a different 'feel', could also be the action.  If the strings are the same make and gauge, the scale lengths the same and the guitars tuned to the same pitch then the string tension should be qual across both guitars.

Only if the following parameters are identical.
Nut slot heights
Fingerboard radius
Fret size / height
Arc relief
Action

..and there may well be more.

All of the above may influence feel and the amount of force required to depress the string but they won’t effect tension.  The fundamental frequency of the vibrating string is a function of length, mass per unit length of the string and tension.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Waves/string.html

String tension is just a part of what we feel when we fret.

Kebabkid

At the recommendation of my guitar tech, he said try Ernie Ball Primo Slinky (9.5-44) as their aim is to literally be 'more slinky' and make the tension less obvious and easier for bending, especially if you were moving up from 9s. 

As It was, I was using D'addario 9.5s anyway but had the issue I started this post with and this seems to have done the trick and they feel really good. I didn't like other types like the NYXLs or Paradigm and was going off D'addario's.

The EB's are still priced the same as most strings and there's no higher cost as with some of the aforementioned. I'll see how I get on