Does anyone *NOT* like valve amps?

WiresDreamDisasters

TTBZ said:

ICBM said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

That's why I mention the JCM900. It routinely gets stick for having solid state circuitry in the distortion circuit.

And yet the Jubilee doesn't... despite also using diode clipping.

Plenty of people over on TGP seem to have issue with any amps using diode clipping, unless it's boutique or a mod. Makes no sense to me, like you guys say if it sounds good it's good.

YEAH WELL.... WANNA FIGHT ABOUT IT!?!?@!!@?!@!!!

UnclePsychosis

Bass players have also adopted solid state in huge numbers, which would be a very weird thing to do if they inherently broke and needed to be replaced every few years. 

Barnezy

Trude said:

I loved valve amps up until:

1. My 60s Vox AC10 caught fire on stage
2. My Hiwatt combo blew up during soundcheck and I had to borrow a mate's Marshall head and carry it half-way across town to save the gig
3. The same Hiwatt almost gave me a hernia whilst trying to get it up a dodgy fire escape at the back of a venue
4. My 5E3 blew its rectifier mid-gig
5. Numerous lesser failures caused me much frustration and loss of time/money in getting them fixed
6. My cat peed in the back of my mate's Classic 30.  Nothing like superheated cat piss to freshen up a rehearsal space.
7. I realised I can't get a decent sound out of them whilst sitting in the same room without ear plugs

Which one was the tipping point? 

I loved valve amps up until:
1. This thread was created.
2. I found out about all those legendary SS amps. 
3. I discovered I'm an angry little man. 

Keefy

UnclePsychosis said:

Bass players have also adopted solid state in huge numbers, which would be a very weird thing to do if they inherently broke and needed to be replaced every few years. 

I am one of those bass players. My main gigging heads are an 800W Class D (which doesn’t mean digital btw!) and a 50W valve job. The Class D is only slightly louder  - there are many heated threads devoted to this topic on Basschat and Talkbass.

My Class D developed an intermittent fault, which I traced to the bridge rectifier being used to create a DC supply for the heaters in the valve preamp - so that’s a solid state component in the valve section of a solid-state-powered amp.

I have no idea what conclusion to draw from that, but with any luck anyone with an inclination to argue can find something in it to support their argument.

Have at it!

LastMantra

My WEM ER40 trannie amp sounds great to me. I honestly doubt many people (if any) could tell it wasn't valve going by the sound. BUT it's a clean amp, it doesn't "break up" in the same way a valve amp can. That edge of break-up warmth is what a lot of ss amps struggle with imo and it's a sound a lot of guitarists want.

This was recorded with nothing but the er40, a behringer distortion and a diy fuzz face for the lead.

ICBM

Keefy said:

My Class D developed an intermittent fault, which I traced to the bridge rectifier being used to create a DC supply for the heaters in the valve preamp - so that’s a solid state component in the valve section of a solid-state-powered amp.

I have no idea what conclusion to draw from that, but with any luck anyone with an inclination to argue can find something in it to support their argument.

It means that design and build quality trumps the technology type, in both directions. I could name several valve amps that are much less reliable than most solid-state amps, as well as some that are better. Complexity is a factor too - Class D and switch-mode power supplies are more complex than Class AB and linear (transformer) power supplies, and more likely to cause trouble in the long term.

The problem with digital is that regardless of the build quality, if a custom chip fails and the manufacturer has no spares, that is game over.

UnclePsychosis

TTBZ said:

ICBM said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

That's why I mention the JCM900. It routinely gets stick for having solid state circuitry in the distortion circuit.

And yet the Jubilee doesn't... despite also using diode clipping.

Plenty of people over on TGP seem to have issue with any amps using diode clipping, unless it's boutique or a mod. Makes no sense to me, like you guys say if it sounds good it's good.

The funny thing is that 90% of the those people will be running an overdrive or distortion pedal into the front of their amp.

'cos, you know, diode clipping in a tiny little box is a good thing but diode clipping in a much bigger box is a bad thing. Or something. 

Trude

Barnezy said:

Trude said:

I loved valve amps up until:

1. My 60s Vox AC10 caught fire on stage
2. My Hiwatt combo blew up during soundcheck and I had to borrow a mate's Marshall head and carry it half-way across town to save the gig
3. The same Hiwatt almost gave me a hernia whilst trying to get it up a dodgy fire escape at the back of a venue
4. My 5E3 blew its rectifier mid-gig
5. Numerous lesser failures caused me much frustration and loss of time/money in getting them fixed
6. My cat peed in the back of my mate's Classic 30.  Nothing like superheated cat piss to freshen up a rehearsal space.
7. I realised I can't get a decent sound out of them whilst sitting in the same room without ear plugs

Which one was the tipping point? 

I loved valve amps up until:
1. This thread was created.
2. I found out about all those legendary SS amps. 
3. I discovered I'm an angry little man. 

In all honesty, I think the tipping points were 5 & 7 from my list.  For the last year or so I've done almost all of my gigs using a Quilter TB200 in a BlockDock 10" cab, and it's been 100% dependable, great sounding (with the right pedals) and almost comically small and light.  This a 100% analogue SS pedal platform amp that is simply the *right* answer for 85% of my playing.

More recently I took the plunge on a well-priced Fender Tonemaster Twin Reverb (yes, a modelling amp) and have found it to be a far more useful studio/home amp than any valve amp I've owned.  Most of the time I'm using it muted via the XLR / IR into my interface/monitors and it's as good a sound as I could ever need.  With a nice OD in front I'm happy as Larry and I don't find myself fantasising about the perfect "Plexi sound at bedroom levels" tube amp that everybody seems to want.

I also expect it to make my gigging life much easier on bigger stages next year (Stones tribute) where I need something large, punchy and authentic-looking.  No road case required either - it weighs as much as a Princeton.  We don't know about long-term reliability of these yet, but if all else fails it's a very nice lightweight 2x12 cab with good speakers and a standard size Fender chassis, so there'll always be *something* to put in there that'll make a sound.  I don't think you could say the same about the Katanas etc.

I did pick up one of the new AC10s on a whim earlier this year, but I can't really see it getting a lot of use if I'm honest now.

UnclePsychosis

Those Tonemasters are a really interesting concept. I do wonder whether they'll take off or not. 

One the one hand, its a modelling amp that can only do one thing, which seemingly defeats the point of using modelling tech. 

On the other hand, I'd be willing to bet that actually a lot of people who do use modelling tech end up only using one of the available models anyway, so maybe making the active decision to dedicate a modeller to exactly one type of amp isn't all that crazy. 

Certainly the weight and extra features make one hugely appealing. If they can nail the sound then all the people (myself included) who've ever said "I want a Twin but I can't deal with the weight" may end up putting their money where their mouth is. 

Trude

UnclePsychosis said:

Those Tonemasters are a really interesting concept. I do wonder whether they'll take off or not. 

One the one hand, its a modelling amp that can only do one thing, which seemingly defeats the point of using modelling tech. 

On the other hand, I'd be willing to bet that actually a lot of people who do use modelling tech end up only using one of the available models anyway, so maybe making the active decision to dedicate a modeller to exactly one type of amp isn't all that crazy. 

Certainly the weight and extra features make one hugely appealing. If they can nail the sound then all the people (myself included) who've ever said "I want a Twin but I can't deal with the weight" may end up putting their money where their mouth is. 

Yeah, I think you've summed up the appeal pretty succinctly there. 

Though it's technically a modelling amp, I don't think of it in that way.  From a user point of view, it's simply a great sounding clean amp that's supremely easy to live with.  I bought it with the thought that I could easily send it back if I didn't like it, but after a lengthy ABC test with the AC10 and a DRRI I found the Tonemaster won on all counts - including basic tone when wound up to healthy levels (to my ears at least - others may disagree).  I know for sure that playing along to tracks on my monitors via the IR out, this thing sounds like a very well recorded Twin Reverb in a mix, and that's good enough for what I need.

Barnezy

I think the ToneMasters type amps are the future. They just need to come down in price a bit. The amp in the room sound, the right cabinet and speakers for the amp, so no IRs or emulation, not a recorded sound being played back at you.

Tube amps will remain. I don't see Mayer swapping out his Dumbles anytime soon. 

That is of course, only if SS amp don't make a come back.... after all bass players used them, and they are known for great tone. Also Chappers can make one sound like a tube amp and he can make a tube amp sound like a bee in a tin can, so they must be good. 

Voxman

Valve amps are just a tool. It depends on which amp, where and how you use them, volume levels, style of music etc. A good valve amp in the right location and musical situation can be without peer. But there are equally situations where I actually prefer a good modelling or solid state amp for greater consistency and/or versatility of tone especially at quieter and mid volume levels. 

It's not a case of being loyal to one or other amp type, it's just a matter of the right tool for the job. Hence I have 3 traditional valve amps, plus a digital modelling and a solid state amp that are both hybrids ie with a valve or two that are used differently in each. 

I like to have choice. 

Babones

Loads of good SS amps that don't become obsolete in my opinion: A whole host of old to contemporary Peaveys, Marshalls (80s/90s), Randalls, Sunn (Beta Lead), Vox Pathfinder 15R, Orange CRs, Quilter...

Danny1969

Keefy said:

UnclePsychosis said:

Bass players have also adopted solid state in huge numbers, which would be a very weird thing to do if they inherently broke and needed to be replaced every few years. 

I am one of those bass players. My main gigging heads are an 800W Class D (which doesn’t mean digital btw!) and a 50W valve job. The Class D is only slightly louder  - there are many heated threads devoted to this topic on Basschat and Talkbass.

My Class D developed an intermittent fault, which I traced to the bridge rectifier being used to create a DC supply for the heaters in the valve preamp - so that’s a solid state component in the valve section of a solid-state-powered amp.

I have no idea what conclusion to draw from that, but with any luck anyone with an inclination to argue can find something in it to support their argument.

Have at it!

I don't know what model you have but most of the amps I see for repair these days are class D bass amps from Mark, TC, Ashdown and Behringer.  The caps in a class D bass power amp have a shorter life than most valves in a typical valve amp. 8 years to 10 years tops if pushed hard. It doesn't help either then Mark and Ashdown and TC make them as small as possible. 

A friend of mine has a solidstate 300 watt  Peavey bass head from 1974 that's done 10 thousand gigs or more. I've repaired a couple of minor things such as the sockets which wore out and a couple of pots but it's still essentially the same amp it was nearly 50 years ago.  Believe me none of the current crop of class D bass amps will get near that lifespan 

As you mention a class D bass amp has to be insanely rated to sound even close to as loud as a linear 100 to 300 watt model. Some of the models are woefully underpowered and only suited to small gigs or need a lot of PA reinforcement., 

ICBM

Danny1969 said:

As you mention a class D bass amp has to be insanely rated to sound even close to as loud as a linear 100 to 300 watt model. Some of the models are woefully underpowered and only suited to small gigs or need a lot of PA reinforcement., 

I’ve said this before too, but the real-world efficiency of valve and old-school Class AB/linear amps is much higher than the power input/output figures would indicate if you’re talking about *volume* rather than *power* output.

I once A/B’d a Fender Bassman 70 against a 400W Class D/SMPS amp, through the same cab... the Fender was significantly louder.

My old Peavey Century 100W Class AB/linear solid-state bass amp was almost as loud as my 500W SMPS/Class D Promethean too.

In both cases the old tech amp draws *less* power from the mains - so which is actually more efficient?

soma1975

So in conclusion, valve amps are far better unless you prefer all the other stuff valve amps don't offer. 

Sorted. 

ESBlonde

Roland said:

vasselmeyer said:

Liked the sound, hated the weight.

... and the reliability.

In the decades I've been gigging (always with valve amps) I've had two failures I can recall that I couldn't recover from righ there on stage. I have in the meantime had a good few more transistor based PA amp failures that are catasrophic and required bench time or the bin.

I think there are good and bad amps of both types, a good one of either will get you where you want to be.

ESBlonde

57Deluxe said:

I don't like that they are more temperamental and expensive to retube and constant servicing. BUT I do like the sound, smell and overall old schoolness...

I suspect the cost of 'servicing' a 50 year old helix will give you a nasty shock in years to come. ;-)

Voxman

ESBlonde said:

57Deluxe said:

I don't like that they are more temperamental and expensive to retube and constant servicing. BUT I do like the sound, smell and overall old schoolness...

I suspect the cost of 'servicing' a 50 year old helix will give you a nasty shock in years to come. ;-)

Probably give you a nasty shock now!  

PolarityMan

Valve amps are terrible and they definitely dont get anywhere near emulating the tone of my favourite band jsut be plugging straight into the front of the amp.

I much prefer my helix amp models, but the problem is they are a bit too good and make everyone else self conscious so I tend to jsut use the FX from the helix into the vale amp jsut to amke everyone more comfortable.

TBH the only reason I have 3 valve heads is because I feel I should do other guitarists a favour and remove some of these shitty sounding anachronisms from general circulation.

Especially my diezel - i wouldnt wish that on anyone.