Tuning machine heads.

Devil#20

Why did we ever go to modern string through the post tuners. Just managed to spike my finger on the loose end of the string again whilst having my breakfast brew/guitar fix. Why don't manufacturers go back to string down the middle vintage style machine heads as standard. They are neater, easier to install and remove strings and IMO keep better tuning stability that a modern style string through the post tuner. The vintage tuner is great so why replace it with something inferior. Unless you're gigging and need a fast string change, locking tuners offer no benefit over  vintage split post tuners either do they? 

ICBM

If your modern through-hole tuners don’t give as good tuning stability as split posts then you’re stringing them wrong.

That said, both types do if strung (and tuned) correctly.

But there are very few - or none, I can’t think of any - modern high quality diecast sealed tuners with threaded collars that have split posts. Since I prefer modern tuners, I don’t have the option...

And spiking your fingers is certainly annoying, but I find it’s not really a problem if you cut the string as close as possible to the post.

skunkwerx

I think I’ve only ever spiked myself twice over the years of playing and stringing. Now I’ve said that it will happen next time lol.. 

I like locking tuners these days. So much less faff which I find minimises any spikage too.

neilg

Something I've started doing after watching some guitar tech video on youtube was to put a couple of bends in the end of string as it comes out of the post so that it looks like an upside down V

crunchman

Locking tuners are far better than any of the vintage style ones.  Make restringing so much easier.

Devil#20

ICBM said:

If your modern through-hole tuners don’t give as good tuning stability as split posts then you’re stringing them wrong.

That said, both types do if strung (and tuned) correctly.

But there are very few - or none, I can’t think of any - modern high quality diecast sealed tuners with threaded collars that have split posts. Since I prefer modern tuners, I don’t have the option...

And spiking your fingers is certainly annoying, but I find it’s not really a problem if you cut the string as close as possible to the post.

The modern tuners and vintage tuners will slip a bit on first stringing unlike locking. I do clip them very close to the posts and when you catch them they are worse than being left a bit longer. I don't gig so don't need bulky locking tuners and if you have a guitar with a tendency to neck dive they aren't going to help. I like split post vintage tuners and if they could produce them with a hex threaded collar to secure them to the headstock that would be the best of both worlds all round. 

Sassafras

I prefer split posts, simple, neat and reliable old time tech.

Philly_Q

Sassafras said:

I prefer split posts, simple, neat and reliable old time tech.

Me too.  I'd been fitting locking tuners on everything for a number of years then I got a couple of vintage-style Fenders and realised how brilliant and easy to use the old Kluson-types are.  Even easier than locking ones.

ICBM said:

But there are very few - or none, I can’t think of any - modern high quality diecast sealed tuners with threaded collars that have split posts. Since I prefer modern tuners, I don’t have the option...

I know 1980s isn't modern (although I still think of it as quite recent...) but Ibanez used to use split-post, sealed die-cast tuners on the Artists and similar models.  G&L used split-post modern tuners for a long time too, I don't know if they still do - probably only on US models.  Neither easily available as spares, though!

ICBM

Devil#20 said:

The modern tuners and vintage tuners will slip a bit on first stringing unlike locking.

Not if you fit the strings properly and stretch them as you wind on. I can make them as secure as locking tuners from the off - the only real reason to use locking is that they're fractionally quicker.

Devil#20 said:

I do clip them very close to the posts and when you catch them they are worse than being left a bit longer.

How close? I cut them about 1mm from the lock wrap, and then I don't think I've ever spiked myself on one. The worst is about half an inch long... short enough to be stiff and not bend out of the way, but long enough to go in really far.

Devil#20 said:

I like split post vintage tuners and if they could produce them with a hex threaded collar to secure them to the headstock that would be the best of both worlds all round. 

Agreed.

Devil#20

ICBM said:

Not if you fit the strings properly and stretch them as you wind on. I can make them as secure as locking tuners from the off - the only real reason to use locking is that they're fractionally quicker.


How close? I cut them about 1mm from the lock wrap, and then I don't think I've ever spiked myself on one. The worst is about half an inch long... short enough to be stiff and not bend out of the way, but long enough to go in really far.

Sometimes I wind the strings on by putting a bend in the string and winding the the loose end under and sometimes I just put a bend in and wind them on without first going over. I stretch them a few times and re-tune a few times and get the odd one slip a little bit they stay in tune after that OK. I cut the loose ends as close as I can get them (so yes probably about 1mm) but when you do catch one you know about it. I've only got locking tuners on my Tele Elite and my one and only Strat and the only advantage I can see is they are quicker to change strings. If you're in no hurry it's not something you need and they don't look as neat as modern or vintage. For me vintage are the neatest and next quickest to remove and change strings to lockers.  

ICBM

Devil#20 said:

Sometimes I wind the strings on by putting a bend in the string and winding the the loose end under and sometimes I just put a bend in and wind them on without first going over. I stretch them a few times and re-tune a few times and get the odd one slip a little bit they stay in tune after that OK. I cut the loose ends as close as I can get them (so yes probably about 1mm) but when you do catch one you know about it. I've only got locking tuners on my Tele Elite and my one and only Strat and the only advantage I can see is they are quicker to change strings. If you're in no hurry it's not something you need and they don't look as neat as modern or vintage. For me vintage are the neatest and next quickest to remove and change strings to lockers.  

If you do the half back turn and lock under method, they don't ever slip, even slightly - they can't. I leave the minimum amount of wrap on the posts too, less than a full turn.

On slotted tuners I fit the top two strings by going a half turn round the wrong way, then back across the slot - that never slips either. The thicker strings are fine without. With a string tree for the top two strings I put the minimum wrap on those as well, but on the others you need to increase the number of winds for the D and especially the G string, to give enough break angle over the nut.

CasperCaster

I love the vintage post Klusons fitted on vintage style Fenders. It is a very elegant design, and works exceptionally well.

On modern Fenders I tend to fit locking tuners as these are my second favourites. 

Fender/ Ping do now make a tuner that directly retro fits their two pin mount, has a modern gear and is attached by the threaded bushing, but looks mostly like a vintage Kluson, and importantly has the correct string post with the slot and vertical hole. They are called  Classic Gear tuners and are fitted to the American Performer models. I haven't tried them yet, but intended to in due course.

https://www.firstguitars.co.uk/shop/new-stock-fender-vintage-chrome-tuners-for-modern-2-pin-locating-necks-099-0802-100/

Philly_Q

CasperCaster said:

Fender/ Ping do now make a tuner that directly retro fits their two pin mount, has a modern gear and is attached by the threaded bushing, but looks mostly like a vintage Kluson, and importantly has the correct string post with the slot and vertical hole. They are called  Classic Gear tuners and are fitted to the American Performer models. I haven't tried them yet, but intended to in due course.

https://www.firstguitars.co.uk/shop/new-stock-fender-vintage-chrome-tuners-for-modern-2-pin-locating-necks-099-0802-100/

Interesting!  I like the way they've incorporated the two pins.  Some guitar hardware manufacturers do a very good job of anticipating a range of scenarios where their products might be used.

Devil#20

CasperCaster said:

I love the vintage post Klusons fitted on vintage style Fenders. It is a very elegant design, and works exceptionally well.

On modern Fenders I tend to fit locking tuners as these are my second favourites. 

Fender/ Ping do now make a tuner that directly retro fits their two pin mount, has a modern gear and is attached by the threaded bushing, but looks mostly like a vintage Kluson, and importantly has the correct string post with the slot and vertical hole. They are called  Classic Gear tuners and are fitted to the American Performer models. I haven't tried them yet, but intended to in due course.

https://www.firstguitars.co.uk/shop/new-stock-fender-vintage-chrome-tuners-for-modern-2-pin-locating-necks-099-0802-100/

You can fit the vintage Kluson Deluxes to modern Fenders and Squiers too. The hole in the headstock are 10mm and 10.5mm respectively and you'll need adaptor bushings to take the 6.2mm or whatever the Kluson post diameter is. WD music do them. I like the way the Klusons butt joint to form a silver bar on the back of the headstock. Just looks right. They are a reasonable price too. The link you posted for those tuners from First Avenue was a good spot though. Didn't know you get get split post threaded bush vintage tuners. They would be excellent to drop into a modern Fender headstock. The butter bean tops are great. Think I'll be ordering a set of those in the morning. 

ICBM

CasperCaster said:

Fender/ Ping do now make a tuner that directly retro fits their two pin mount, has a modern gear and is attached by the threaded bushing, but looks mostly like a vintage Kluson, and importantly has the correct string post with the slot and vertical hole. They are called  Classic Gear tuners and are fitted to the American Performer models. I haven't tried them yet, but intended to in due course.

https://www.firstguitars.co.uk/shop/new-stock-fender-vintage-chrome-tuners-for-modern-2-pin-locating-necks-099-0802-100/

That's really very useful. I have been asked many times to replace those modern tuners with Kluson types, and until now I've always refused because it just isn't possible to do it right.

It's a shame they use the same diecast backs with fragile securing pins as the Schaller/Grover/etc ones Gibson use with tulip keys, but I suppose it's at least a step in the right direction...

Devil#20

ICBM said:

That's really very useful. I have been asked many times to replace those modern tuners with Kluson types, and until now I've always refused because it just isn't possible to do it right.

It's a shame they use the same diecast backs with fragile securing pins as the Schaller/Grover/etc ones Gibson use with tulip keys, but I suppose it's at least a step in the right direction...

Why is it not possible to do it right? Are you talking about lining them up? If so there's a dead easy way. 

ICBM

Devil#20 said:

Why is it not possible to do it right? Are you talking about lining them up? If so there's a dead easy way.

No, nothing to do with lining them up, that’s easy. Just that you can’t properly fit them to 10mm holes. You can bodge it in one or two different ways, but that isn’t the same thing...

DrBob

Is Fender 2 prong the same as Sperzels ?

ICBM

DrBob said:

Is Fender 2 prong the same as Sperzels ?

No, unfortunately not. Sperzels have a single pin.

They do cover each other's footprint well enough that you can fit Sperzels or put back the Fender tuners without the extra holes showing though.