NOS valves - what to go for...

DartmoorHedgehog

I've only ever used modern-production valves in my amps, mostly JJ, EHx and unbranded Chinese.  I'm curious to try a couple of old ones to see what the fuss is about, but I'm not going to spend silly money on them just for an experiment.  I'd be after 12AX7/ECC83 mostly.  The obvious Mullards and Brimars seem to sell for rather high prices - are there any others that are considered better than modern ones but less expensive?  What I'd consider "better" would be more clarity, possibly slightly smoother overdrive.  My current amp is an Orange Rocker 30, currently with Chinese preamp valves and JJ EL34s.  Presumably changing the first position ECC83 would have most effect (I think that is the clean channel and first stage of the dirty channel).  Obviously the Orange is a fairly dark amp, so slightly brighter sounding valves wouldn't be a bad thing (I generally like darkish sound though), but I wouldn't want to lose the warmth on the clean channel (which has no tone control).  I don't use high gain, except when messing about.

If there's a noobs guide to old valves thread already, feel free to point me at it (I couldn't find one with a quick search)

So, what's worth looking out for without needing to be loaded?

Gagaryn

JAN Philips or GE JAN are pretty good and might be cheaper than Mullards and Brimars. Thing is, 12AX7s are popular valves so the prices are high - you can pick up Mullard 12AT7s, for example for a few quid.

DartmoorHedgehog

OK, thanks - I'll keep an eye out for something at a sensible price.  It's not that I don't like the sound of the amp with modern valves, just curious to try some old ones for a change, but I'm not going to pay top money for them.

What is it that's considered "better" about old ones - are they reckoned to sound better or is it just the consistency and reliability?  Or is it all just Emperor's New Clothes?

ICBM

DartmoorHedgehog said:

What is it that's considered "better" about old ones - are they reckoned to sound better or is it just the consistency and reliability?  Or is it all just Emperor's New Clothes?

Definitely not. The old ones sound clearer and fuller in my opinion - across the board of all the differences in exact tone balance between any of the old and any of the new ones (which are fairly wide). They're also usually much more reliable, although you can be unlucky with old ones as well…

The one thing I would say is not to pay through the nose for the most hyped vintage brands - eg Mullard, but particularly Telefunken. Mullards *are* good, but no better than other similar British-made valves of the same period, and although Telefunkens are very sought-after for hi-fi, to me they sound *too* clear, and quite 'cold', for guitar amps usually.

You can also pick up Mullards cheaply if you know what a re-labelled one looks like, and if you buy used ones - which are often just as reliable as 'new' ones. Old preamp valves can easily last decades.

And beware of re-labelling the other way! Towards the end of production, many of the Western brands imported cheap East-European valves and put their own labels on them… including Mullard. In my collection of 12AX7s I have a couple of Mullard-labelled RFTs, among other things - RFTs are great, and are now starting to go up in value, but they're certainly not as valuable as Mullards.

ecc83

" Presumably changing the first position ECC83 would have most effect"

Don't bet on it! MUCH of course depends upon any specific amp's topology but the first stage triode is hardly ever driven hard enough to make a difference (from a guitar that is. Paying thru the "NOS" for valves and then using a silicon pedal seems a bit daft to me?) .

Once amped up by some 30dB+ the signal is big enough to do some tonal carnage. I seem to recall ICBM saying a PI can have an effect?

Front end valves need selecting for low noise, hum and microphony, qualities which are sadly poorer in new stock in my view.

But yes, old pre amp valves rarely failed. Even 6V6s in radios would easily do a couple of decades but then  of course they were never abused.

Dave.

ICBM

I don't agree with the logic of changing just V1, or that it makes the most difference - firstly as Dave said, which one makes the "most" difference depends on the relative signal levels as you go through the circuit, and secondly I don't hear it that way round - to me, modern valves "spoil" the tone more than old ones "improve" it, if that makes sense.

Fit one old valve in an amp otherwise full of new ones, and you probably won't hear much difference. Fit one new one in an amp otherwise full of old ones, and you probably will. It's probably not a very good analogy but I think of it as like looking at something through multiple panes of glass.. Modern valves are like slightly frosted glass, old ones like clear. Put one clear pane among several frosted panes and you won't see through them much better… but one frosted in among several clear ones and the result is still that you can't see clearly.

If you're going to do it, fit old-production valves throughout and you *will* hear a difference.

DartmoorHedgehog

Ah thanks again folks.  I'll see if I can find three then and change all the preamp valves.  I'm not in any hurry to do it, I've got a few spare modern ones for emergency use, so I'll just keep an eye out for some.  Used is fine if they last for ages and don't cost a fortune.

How old do they have to be for them not to be rebranded imports?  Is there an idiot's guide to knowing the difference or is it too subtle to describe?  The only thing I've picked up by reading stuff on here is that Chinese ones have those two chrome strips - is there something similar that would identify an old British one?

@ICBM, when you say "fit old throughout" are you including the power valves? (currently using JJs)

ICBM

DartmoorHedgehog said:

@ICBM, when you say "fit old throughout" are you including the power valves? (currently using JJs)

If possible, yes - although they tend to be more expensive. The power valves have slightly less of an effect on the tone, but not none.

To identify old valves, you just need to look at all the details of the glass bottle shape, moulding ridges on it, plate size and shape, micas, and any small etched numbers on the glass (not the logo)… once you get used to it it's not too difficult.

ecc83

IF! You do it can you please make a recording before and after?

Dave,

DartmoorHedgehog

Thanks.

@ecc83, I'm very likely to try some old preamp valves sometime (when I find some) and when I do I will try to make a comparison recording, if only to see if I can tell the difference myself.  Power valves not so sure - as ICBM said, they seem expensive and do wear out faster than preamps.  If (or likely when) I do it I'll report back.  The amp sounds fantastic IMO with modern valves, so anything "better" would just be a bonus.  Or I might find I prefer the modern ones...

pickerg

ICBM said:

I don't agree with the logic of changing just V1, or that it makes the most difference - firstly as Dave said, which one makes the "most" difference depends on the relative signal levels as you go through the circuit, and secondly I don't hear it that way round - to me, modern valves "spoil" the tone more than old ones "improve" it, if that makes sense.

Fit one old valve in an amp otherwise full of new ones, and you probably won't hear much difference.

This is what I have found recently, after buying a nos RCA for V1 of my 5F6A.  I'm now also looking for some nos 12AX7s for V2 and V3, I'll be interested in what you go for Dartmoor, keep us informed. I have a couple of nos 6L6WGBs for the power too, I'll also do a before and after recording once fully sorted out.

Do you experts think a nos rectifier affects the sound too?  There seems to be conflicting arguments online, with some of the nos sellers saying it can make lots of difference (but they would say that, wouldn't they?).

ICBM

I think it does, because many modern rectifiers are quite different in spec to the original types even if they're supposedly the same valve number.

Modern rectifiers seem to be significantly more unreliable as well - although not helped by some modern amp designers not knowing how to implement a standby switch correctly, which puts a great deal of stress on the rectifier.

Gagaryn

Not comparing like with like here, but I've fitted NOS valves in my Tweed Princeton (GE JAN 12AX7WA, Brimar 6V6GT and JAN Philips 5Y3WGTA) and my PRRI with modern Groovetubes sounds dead in comparison. I thought it sounded ok prior to trying them side by side though! 

ThePrettyDamned

I wonder if there will ever be a market to make really high quality valves again?

I don't see why the Chinese can't do it - they clearly know how to make valves, they just need a vintage recipe book surely?

It would be lovely to be able to buy higher quality vintage style valves as a 'premium' range.

ICBM

I doubt there is the incentive. Today's market is driven by cost and not quality - when musicians won't pay more than the price of a couple of sets of strings for a preamp valve without moaning they're too expensive, there's no easy way of improving the quality. The old-production valves were made when quality mattered, not cost - the valves were used in all types of critical equipment including military, avionics and medical, for which the budget was essentially unlimited. The same processes and in many cases the exact same valve types were also sold for audio uses. The development of these processes took place over decades when valves were state of the art and attracted the best engineers… that just isn't ever going to happen again.

ThePrettyDamned

shame.  It would be nice if they had the old production facilities available to cut down r+d.

That said, I'm planning on getting some AMT or jet city SS plug ins to see how they are (when I eventually get a valve amp!). 

DartmoorHedgehog

ICBM said:

when musicians won't pay more than the price of a couple of sets of strings for a preamp valve without moaning they're too expensive

Hmm, I may be guilty on that count

When I'm used to 12AX7s costing around a tenner, I'm a bit reluctant to pay £50 for an old one just to test the "old is better" theory.  I was hoping to get some for £20 each or so, but perhaps I should set my sights a bit higher and be less of a miser.  There are people listing Mullards on ebay for £250 a pair!

mudslide73

+1 for RFTs. Sound great in Marshalls.. some great cheap stock in Bulgaria atm

ICBM

DartmoorHedgehog said:

ICBM said:

when musicians won't pay more than the price of a couple of sets of strings for a preamp valve without moaning they're too expensive

Hmm, I may be guilty on that count

When I'm used to 12AX7s costing around a tenner, I'm a bit reluctant to pay £50 for an old one just to test the "old is better" theory.  I was hoping to get some for £20 each or so, but perhaps I should set my sights a bit higher and be less of a miser.  There are people listing Mullards on ebay for £250 a pair!

That is daft, but £20-£25 for a decent preamp valve isn't unreasonable, in my opinion - when you think what they take to make. I don't know what they cost back in the 60s, but it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't more than that in real terms.

On the other hand you can buy an entire Jet City 20W amp, including two EL84s and (I think) four 12AX7s for under £200 brand new. Made in China of course, but I do wonder how they manage that!

ecc83

On the valve quality/cost  issue.

The only solution I see is for those that use the valves to get together with the valve manufctrs and come up with a list of types to build into the future?

This will of course put some noses out of joint* but as I see things, better to build a fer basic types really well  and get a decent return from those than try to please everyone, badly.

Us gitampists seem to think the valve "world" revolves about us but I have read that the Hi Fi industry uses far more valves than the guitar amp boys?

*I would for instance see the 12BH7 go the way of the Dodo. I believe Ampeg use them, anything else?

Dave.

pmg

Blackstar ht 5 use 12bh7 valves