Big guitar brands vs small luthiers

lincolnblue

I've found it very interesting looking at this and the acoustic forums at the makes of guitars people buy. Electrics are dominated by Fender, Gibson, Gretsch, PRS etc and, whilst there are always people who buy custom luthier-built guitars, it is in the minority. People tend to favour the big, well known brands.

However it seems rather different in acoustics. Yes, there are Taylors, Martins, Beeedlove etc but there is so much more love in the acoustic world for the smaller manufacturers and luthiers. 

I know this is somewhat of a generalisation but I just wondered why this is the case. Is it that acoustic players are more interested in the guitar than the brand and its history or is it more that electric players are just fairly narrow minded in terms of manufacturers?

Not meant as a argument starter, just genuinely curious

drofluf

OK I'll stick my neck out a little I'm primarily an acoustic player so may be biased...

With an acoustic the luthier has more parameters to play with in terms of choice of wood, body shape, bracing etc.. Whilst these aren't totally irrelevant for an electric instrument an electric's sound is only partially defined by the wood/construction but the amplifier, pickups and any effects also have an impact on the sound whereas the luthier has almost totally control over the instrument's sound.

Rob1742

I just like the fact that in the guitar market the smaller companies have some traction. In a lot of markets, it’s a couple of huge brands that kill off the smaller brands so choice is limited. 

Soft fizzy drinks and trainers is rob markets that spring to mind.

I love it that smaller companies can survive due to their fantastic product, and or their great service.

I have guitars from the large brands, and the smaller brands, I like them all, but I am just pleased that I believe in my lifetime we are lucky that the choice will always be there. So many great brands in other markets have been killed off by the big boys. 

DrBob

I think that the model for how a lot of people are buying their guitars these days i.e. effectively buying them “blind” on the internet has helped drive this a bit.
I’m not sure so many people are necessarily looking for “the one” and spending hours and hours trying as many guitars as they can in that search. I think there’s more a culture of “Ooohh I’ve always fancied one of those” So you buy it blind, play it at home, keep it for a while then maybe flip it to go after the next shiny trinket.
And if that’s your model your money is far safer in the better known, big brands as they will always be easier to move on further down the line without losing your shirt on the deal

Hoarasaurus

It's a very interesting point to raise, I seem to have gone the opposite way...

I've got two acoustics, both by an established brand. A Tanglewood TW40 Parlour, and a Lowden F25, of those, I bought the Lowden 'Blind' over the phone, and the Tanglewood I bought having played it in a shop. (It is one of those gem finds.)

As for Electrics, I've my Jap Strat, that I've had since 18yrs old, shop bought (The Old St Martins Music, Lincoln) which is clearly mass produced, and a 70's Kasuga Barney Kessel, purchased here from the esteemed Gentleman @jacklawtey , which is kind of mass produced, but not exactly common. They're both brilliant at their thing, but the pride of my collection are my Lucas'

With these, I had a clear idea of the sound and aesthitic of what I wanted in my guitar, I've been playing for long enough to have a clear idea of exactly what I want. And having got to Adrian over many years,see him play, and know who he is; I knew that he would get what i wanted, as I couldn't find them on the walls of guitar shops, or the pages of a website.
I've now got three from him, each totally different, and totally unique to me. Knowing that my money is going to a person, not a corporation, does feel a better thing to do. 

I guess, generalisations are always hard to apply to everyone, and I love that there is the space for both the big manufacturers and the small individuals. 



There's my 2 pence, if it helps??

Sassafras

I find most Martins over-hyped.
I've played a few stunners but also some very mediocre ones.

lincolnblue

Hoarasaurus said:

It's a very interesting point to raise, I seem to have gone the opposite way...

I've got two acoustics, both by an established brand. A Tanglewood TW40 Parlour, and a Lowden F25, of those, I bought the Lowden 'Blind' over the phone, and the Tanglewood I bought having played it in a shop. (It is one of those gem finds.)

As for Electrics, I've my Jap Strat, that I've had since 18yrs old, shop bought (The Old St Martins Music, Lincoln) which is clearly mass produced, and a 70's Kasuga Barney Kessel, purchased here from the esteemed Gentleman @jacklawtey , which is kind of mass produced, but not exactly common. They're both brilliant at their thing, but the pride of my collection are my Lucas'

With these, I had a clear idea of the sound and aesthitic of what I wanted in my guitar, I've been playing for long enough to have a clear idea of exactly what I want. And having got to Adrian over many years,see him play, and know who he is; I knew that he would get what i wanted, as I couldn't find them on the walls of guitar shops, or the pages of a website.
I've now got three from him, each totally different, and totally unique to me. Knowing that my money is going to a person, not a corporation, does feel a better thing to do. 

I guess, generalisations are always hard to apply to everyone, and I love that there is the space for both the big manufacturers and the small individuals. 



There's my 2 pence, if it helps??

Really interesting to see if from the flip side as you have done. I've had Adrian do work on a few of my guitars and, whilst he's never built one for me, I've always been really impressed. As you say, giving money to someone rather than a big corp is a good way to look at it. 

I think one of my points is that with electrics it seems less common to see luthier built models than with acoustics but you're proof there is always a flip side to that

guitars4you

drofluf said:

With an acoustic the luthier has more parameters to play with in terms of choice of wood, body shape, bracing etc.. the luthier has almost totally control over the instrument's sound.

Rob1742 said:

I love it that smaller companies can survive due to their fantastic product, and or their great service.

I have guitars from the large brands, and the smaller brands, I like them all, but I am just pleased that I believe in my lifetime we are lucky that the choice will always be there.

I think a big plus point with boutique acoustic builders is that, as an overview the D, OM, 000 or 00 profile is still the backbone of the industry - You can change a host of parameters within that format, that will influence tone and playability - I know there are other shapes/models, but the D, OM, 00 and 000 are the heart of the acoustic industry - Look at Collings Guitars - Nearly all their guitars are re-vamped Martin Guitars and I don't mean that in a negative way - Far from it, as in the opinion of many Collings are accepted as some of the finest guitars around - But keeping to the D, OM, 00 and 000 format still keeps it 'traditional' and as such far more acceptable

Compare the above to the electric market and IPR is so much stronger and the big companies defend their assets - As such any/many small companies have to find their own style/design and amongst the traditionalist out there, the classic designs reign supreme - As such many new ideas are just for a minority market - I'm not saying what they make is better/worse - Just far harder to get established with a new shape/design - PRS is one of the few to take on the established format - In part his success is done to build quality, but also he came along when Gibson/Fender were at a low point 

Jalapeno

I think that Gibson/Fender have turned into box shifters by and large and that newer more innovative makers are giving them a pasting. PRS is now a monster, but started very small.

We're almost (not quite yet sadly) in a post-brand guitar era - like basses have been for 20yrs or longer.

lincolnblue

Jalapeno said:

I think that Gibson/Fender have turned into box shifters by and large and that newer more innovative makers are giving them a pasting. PRS is now a monster, but started very small.

We're almost (not quite yet sadly) in a post-brand guitar era - like basses have been for 20yrs or longer.

That's a good point about bass guitars - there are many players using non-bog company instruments. 

Hoarasaurus

Sassafras said:

I find most Martins over-hyped.
I've played a few stunners but also some very mediocre ones.

I'd have to agree with you there, and also add to that list Taylor and Gibson! I got my Tanglewood when i was looking for a guitar to complement my Lowden, as i was using multiple alternate tunings in a band, and doing a whole set with one guitar was a bit of a pain. I picked the Tanglewood up, out of frustration of playing all the other 'Good' guitars, and being very unimpressed with them. The TW40 just sang, and it made me want to play it, and at £549 it was substantially cheaper than the others, especially when they gave me it on 10months interest free! It's so easy to stay a brand snob, but I've always found it very satisfying to look outside of the box.  

Philly_Q

Is cost - both to the manufacturer and the customer - a factor?

I don't know much about acoustics, I haven't owned one for years, but it seems to me that a "good" acoustic is a fairly significant investment, whether you go for a small builder or a big brand like Taylor, Martin etc. 

Whereas with electrics, the big brands make high-end stuff but equally they can churn out vast numbers of good quality, perfectly playable guitars and sell them for 300 quid.  No small independent builder can possibly compete in that end of the market. 

Maybe I'm simply unaware of it, maybe there are great cheap acoustics out there, but there doesn't seem to be an acoustic equivalent of "a Harley Benton with a decent set of pickups will give an R8 a run for its money".

Hoarasaurus

lincolnblue said:

Hoarasaurus said:

It's a very interesting point to raise, I seem to have gone the opposite way...

I've got two acoustics, both by an established brand. A Tanglewood TW40 Parlour, and a Lowden F25, of those, I bought the Lowden 'Blind' over the phone, and the Tanglewood I bought having played it in a shop. (It is one of those gem finds.)

As for Electrics, I've my Jap Strat, that I've had since 18yrs old, shop bought (The Old St Martins Music, Lincoln) which is clearly mass produced, and a 70's Kasuga Barney Kessel, purchased here from the esteemed Gentleman @jacklawtey , which is kind of mass produced, but not exactly common. They're both brilliant at their thing, but the pride of my collection are my Lucas'

With these, I had a clear idea of the sound and aesthitic of what I wanted in my guitar, I've been playing for long enough to have a clear idea of exactly what I want. And having got to Adrian over many years,see him play, and know who he is; I knew that he would get what i wanted, as I couldn't find them on the walls of guitar shops, or the pages of a website.
I've now got three from him, each totally different, and totally unique to me. Knowing that my money is going to a person, not a corporation, does feel a better thing to do. 

I guess, generalisations are always hard to apply to everyone, and I love that there is the space for both the big manufacturers and the small individuals. 



There's my 2 pence, if it helps??

Really interesting to see if from the flip side as you have done. I've had Adrian do work on a few of my guitars and, whilst he's never built one for me, I've always been really impressed. As you say, giving money to someone rather than a big corp is a good way to look at it. 

I think one of my points is that with electrics it seems less common to see luthier built models than with acoustics but you're proof there is always a flip side to that

You're definitely right, small Luthier brand electrics are less common, but I think that the interweb has definitly given them a bigger shop window. I do love how Kauer do their business, and how Doug always champions the unknown Luthiers and leftfield designs. Adrian has also been great at that, with his association with the Holy Grail Guitar Show etc. It's a wonderful Rabbit hole to wander around in. 

For drooling, and inspration, i love to look at:
http://www.taoguitars.com/
http://www.grayguitars.london/
http://www.sankeyguitars.com/
http://schorrguitars.de/
http://millimetric.ca/
https://matsudaguitars.com/

steveh

lincolnblue said:

 Is it that acoustic players are more interested in the guitar than the brand and its history or is it more that electric players are just fairly narrow minded in terms of manufacturers?

I'm also one of those guys - played electric for years, got a bit older and started playing steel-string when I realised you didn't need a band to sound good. Whoever learned a "tune" on an electric? Anyways, I've always been a gear-head and it didn't take long to find myself several miles down the sole-luthier rabbit-hole.

Why? Because of tone, pure and simple. As others have said, a luthier can spend ages concentrating on getting your guitar just right, and there are far more variables at play than with an electric (and this is even more the case for nylon instruments than steel string since they are even lighter built). Gibson put out one crap guitar = so what. Mr. luthier puts out one crap guitar (of the 10 he/she's made that year) and their reputation is gone.

I ended up with Lowden (fabulous guitars) just before I made the jump to sole-luthier with a Sobell (prompted by Martin Simpson); that Sobell changed my guitar-playing life overnight. Suddetly I was SERIOUSLY interested in playing - it just sounded soooo good. A truly great acoustic is an amazing experience.

It is worth mentioning it's not cheap - 2K will get you miles in the electric world vs. not too far on the sole-luthier planet. I will say one thing though, GAS drove me towards Sobells, Traugotts, Claxtons and Kostals, but there are amazing guitars out there for far less than those (especially used). As ever, at a certain threshold you start paying for the "name". The key is to identify good luthiers on their way up before they becomes "names" - I had the first Kostal out of his own shop and similar for Tom Sands. Once established, acoustic luthiers can name their price because at 10 guitars a year, you only need 30 orders to have a 3-year wait list. Someone gets "hot" over on the AGF forum, and their order book is full 10 seconds later.  

Hoarasaurus

steveh said:

lincolnblue said:

 Is it that acoustic players are more interested in the guitar than the brand and its history or is it more that electric players are just fairly narrow minded in terms of manufacturers?

I'm also one of those guys - played electric for years, got a bit older and started playing steel-string when I realised you didn't need a band to sound good. Whoever learned a "tune" on an electric? Anyways, I've always been a gear-head and it didn't take long to find myself several miles down the sole-luthier rabbit-hole.

Why? Because of tone, pure and simple. As others have said, a luthier can spend ages concentrating on getting your guitar just right, and there are far more variables at play than with an electric (and this is even more the case for nylon instruments than steel string since they are even lighter built). Gibson put out one crap guitar = so what. Mr. luthier puts out one crap guitar (of the 10 he/she's made that year) and their reputation is gone.

I ended up with Lowden (fabulous guitars) just before I made the jump to sole-luthier with a Sobell (prompted by Martin Simpson); that Sobell changed my guitar-playing life overnight. Suddetly I was SERIOUSLY interested in playing - it just sounded soooo good. A truly great acoustic is an amazing experience.

It is worth mentioning it's not cheap - 2K will get you miles in the electric world vs. not too far on the sole-luthier planet. I will say one thing though, GAS drove me towards Sobells, Traugotts, Claxtons and Kostals, but there are amazing guitars out there for far less than those (especially used). As ever, at a certain threshold you start paying for the "name". The key is to identify good luthiers on their way up before they becomes "names" - I had the first Kostal out of his own shop and similar for Tom Sands. Once established, acoustic luthiers can name their price because at 10 guitars a year, you only need 30 orders to have a 3-year wait list. Someone gets "hot" over on the AGF forum, and their order book is full 10 seconds later.  

"2K will get you miles in the electric world vs not too far on the sole-luthier planet." A very true statement there!

I would love to get a bespoke acoustic (Adrian's are stunning) but it is MUCH more expensive, as it should be. To do it well, it takes a lot of training, skill and time, and that justifiably adds to the cost. I remember watching a documentary on the Yamaha Guitar custom shop, where they casually said that they hand apply 300 coats of Shellac on their traditionally made Nylon strung guitars. It practically takes 6 months just to apply the finish!

steveh

Two further observations: 

For those not familiar with the rarified world of the sole luthier, we have some of the best on the planet right here in the UK. For starters, check out Taran guitars (Rory Dowling), Tom Sands, Stefan Sobell, and Ralph Bown (you won't find a website for Ralph - it's been a work-in-progress for around 20 years!). There are loads of others. 

Endorsements are interesting. A guy or girl in a shed making 10 guitars a year and not turning enough over to hit the VAT threshold can't afford to give free guitars to people and certainly can't afford to pay them to play their guitars in public. There are some very notable exceptions, i.e. name players who can command an endorsement but who play an "unknown guitar": James Taylor is the obvious example, when he started playing James Olson decades ago (Incidentally, the result was that Olson's guitars skyrocketed in price overnight). The result is that there may be a difference between what gets played on stage and at home. Martin make a John Mayer signature guitar, the OMJM, but Mayer also has a Traugott. I wonder which he plays on the couch...?

jacklawtey

Hoarasaurus said:

It's a very interesting point to raise, I seem to have gone the opposite way...

I've got two acoustics, both by an established brand. A Tanglewood TW40 Parlour, and a Lowden F25, of those, I bought the Lowden 'Blind' over the phone, and the Tanglewood I bought having played it in a shop. (It is one of those gem finds.)

As for Electrics, I've my Jap Strat, that I've had since 18yrs old, shop bought (The Old St Martins Music, Lincoln) which is clearly mass produced, and a 70's Kasuga Barney Kessel, purchased here from the esteemed Gentleman @jacklawtey , which is kind of mass produced, but not exactly common. They're both brilliant at their thing, but the pride of my collection are my Lucas'

With these, I had a clear idea of the sound and aesthitic of what I wanted in my guitar, I've been playing for long enough to have a clear idea of exactly what I want. And having got to Adrian over many years,see him play, and know who he is; I knew that he would get what i wanted, as I couldn't find them on the walls of guitar shops, or the pages of a website.
I've now got three from him, each totally different, and totally unique to me. Knowing that my money is going to a person, not a corporation, does feel a better thing to do. 

I guess, generalisations are always hard to apply to everyone, and I love that there is the space for both the big manufacturers and the small individuals. 



There's my 2 pence, if it helps??

If you ever fancy flogging that Kasuga back to me, you know where I am! I was dumb to let that go. 

Sassafras

Maybe things would be different if people didn't insist on having the 'right' logo on the headstock simply to safeguard their investment.
Resale value always rears its head in these kinds of discussions.

StefB

Sassafras said:

Maybe things would be different if people didn't insist on having the 'right' logo on the headstock simply to safeguard their investment.
Resale value always rears its head in these kinds of discussions.

I think that's the crux of it. 

You've got to a) REALLY know what you want if dropping a considerable sum on a luthier built one off and b) not be a GAS afflicted, regular flipper. 

Those sorts seem to be very much in the minority, especially in these here waters.

Hoarasaurus

jacklawtey said:

Hoarasaurus said:

It's a very interesting point to raise, I seem to have gone the opposite way...

I've got two acoustics, both by an established brand. A Tanglewood TW40 Parlour, and a Lowden F25, of those, I bought the Lowden 'Blind' over the phone, and the Tanglewood I bought having played it in a shop. (It is one of those gem finds.)

As for Electrics, I've my Jap Strat, that I've had since 18yrs old, shop bought (The Old St Martins Music, Lincoln) which is clearly mass produced, and a 70's Kasuga Barney Kessel, purchased here from the esteemed Gentleman @jacklawtey , which is kind of mass produced, but not exactly common. They're both brilliant at their thing, but the pride of my collection are my Lucas'

With these, I had a clear idea of the sound and aesthitic of what I wanted in my guitar, I've been playing for long enough to have a clear idea of exactly what I want. And having got to Adrian over many years,see him play, and know who he is; I knew that he would get what i wanted, as I couldn't find them on the walls of guitar shops, or the pages of a website.
I've now got three from him, each totally different, and totally unique to me. Knowing that my money is going to a person, not a corporation, does feel a better thing to do. 

I guess, generalisations are always hard to apply to everyone, and I love that there is the space for both the big manufacturers and the small individuals. 



There's my 2 pence, if it helps??

If you ever fancy flogging that Kasuga back to me, you know where I am! I was dumb to let that go. 

Ah, @jacklawtey ;. I'm afraid it's rather happy in Lincoln....

Hoarasaurus

Sassafras said:

Maybe things would be different if people didn't insist on having the 'right' logo on the headstock simply to safeguard their investment.
Resale value always rears its head in these kinds of discussions.

Very true! 

And it in know way correlates with the quality of the instrument. I once had huge difficulty selling a '82 G&L F100, which was heck fo a guitar. If it said Fender, it would've sold instantly, and it would not have any in any shape aas good, nor even as true a "Fender"!