Big guitar brands vs small luthiers

tsj93

steveh said:

Two further observations: 

For those not familiar with the rarified world of the sole luthier, we have some of the best on the planet right here in the UK. For starters, check out Taran guitars (Rory Dowling), Tom Sands, Stefan Sobell, and Ralph Bown (you won't find a website for Ralph - it's been a work-in-progress for around 20 years!). There are loads of others. 

Endorsements are interesting. A guy or girl in a shed making 10 guitars a year and not turning enough over to hit the VAT threshold can't afford to give free guitars to people and certainly can't afford to pay them to play their guitars in public. There are some very notable exceptions, i.e. name players who can command an endorsement but who play an "unknown guitar": James Taylor is the obvious example, when he started playing James Olson decades ago (Incidentally, the result was that Olson's guitars skyrocketed in price overnight). The result is that there may be a difference between what gets played on stage and at home. Martin make a John Mayer signature guitar, the OMJM, but Mayer also has a Traugott. I wonder which he plays on the couch...?

Taran guitars look great, also because thats my first name

Winny_Pooh

As stated, you can make a solid body guitar for less than £1000 that sounds as good blindfolded as anything over £2000 even if it doesnt sound *precisely* like a rare guitar made in 1959 with rat arse glue, compostable plastics and bongo bongo wood.

Whereas acoustics, you will 100% hear the difference in person, and so will most non-musicians in the same room. It is so much harder to make a good acoustic guitar and only small factory setups like Collings, Santa Cruz etc come close to bespoke builders.

Generally players that have to have Martin or Gibson on the headstock are blue-arsers (never renowned for being particularly progressive)

jacklawtey

Hoarasaurus said:

jacklawtey said:

Hoarasaurus said:

It's a very interesting point to raise, I seem to have gone the opposite way...

I've got two acoustics, both by an established brand. A Tanglewood TW40 Parlour, and a Lowden F25, of those, I bought the Lowden 'Blind' over the phone, and the Tanglewood I bought having played it in a shop. (It is one of those gem finds.)

As for Electrics, I've my Jap Strat, that I've had since 18yrs old, shop bought (The Old St Martins Music, Lincoln) which is clearly mass produced, and a 70's Kasuga Barney Kessel, purchased here from the esteemed Gentleman @jacklawtey , which is kind of mass produced, but not exactly common. They're both brilliant at their thing, but the pride of my collection are my Lucas'

With these, I had a clear idea of the sound and aesthitic of what I wanted in my guitar, I've been playing for long enough to have a clear idea of exactly what I want. And having got to Adrian over many years,see him play, and know who he is; I knew that he would get what i wanted, as I couldn't find them on the walls of guitar shops, or the pages of a website.
I've now got three from him, each totally different, and totally unique to me. Knowing that my money is going to a person, not a corporation, does feel a better thing to do. 

I guess, generalisations are always hard to apply to everyone, and I love that there is the space for both the big manufacturers and the small individuals. 



There's my 2 pence, if it helps??

If you ever fancy flogging that Kasuga back to me, you know where I am! I was dumb to let that go. 

Ah, @jacklawtey ;. I'm afraid it's rather happy in Lincoln....

Aaaah, there it is. I had totally forgot about the weird sanded bit. Hope it brings you years of joy! 

ICBM

Winny_Pooh said:

Whereas acoustics, you will 100% hear the difference in person, and so will most non-musicians in the same room. It is so much harder to make a good acoustic guitar and only small factory setups like Collings, Santa Cruz etc come close to bespoke builders.

Generally players that have to have Martin or Gibson on the headstock are blue-arsers (never renowned for being particularly progressive)

Oddly, my experience is that guitars from Gibson and Martin usually sound better and always have much more character than Collings, Santa Cruz and other high-end guitars, which I always find very bland and uninteresting despite being 'good'.

Nothing to do with what's on the headstock, it's the sound of the guitars. It's true that I've also heard some duff Martins and especially Gibsons, but plenty of duff 'bespoke' guitars too... so I don't think there's any universal truth in the idea that small builders make better guitars or that 'mass produced' is bad.

I'm aware that this probably won't be a popular opinion.

crunchman

Collings don't do it for me either.  I much prefer my Martin.

I like Santa Cruz though.  The best sounding acoustic I've ever played was a Santa Cruz.  It was a pre-war style 12 fret OOO with a really wide nut width (something like 1 7/8"), so there is no way I could have lived with it long term, but it sounded amazing.  I've played a couple of others that were stunning as well.

Martins do vary.  I much prefer the "forward shifted" pre-war style bracing.  A good HD28V is superb.  I've not played any of the newer D28s since they have changed the bracing a few years ago.

At this point in time, if I were to get another acoustic, I'd probably get an Atkin.

ToneControl

OK, successful factory mass production is based on repeatability
Metals, plastics etc. can be bought with reliably consistent characteristics

This is not true for wood

Pieces of wood from the same species, the same place, and even the same tree can vary a lot in density and various other characteristics

When you mass produce electrics, these differences can be managed quite well, although you do get some guitars that better or worse than average. Luthier-built electrics can select the wood more than factories do, but I don't know if that happens much.

Acoustic small-workshop luthiers can tap-tune the wood, select the best soundboard wood pieces, and tweak them as they go along to get the best from the woods, adapting the bracing or shaving more wood off here and there. You can ask to have the bracing fine tuned for fingerstyle rather than plectrum playing, etc. 
I don't believe that any of the large acoustic guitar factories do this.

Watch the Dana Bourgeois tap-tuning video

I've tried lots of expensive acoustics. To my ears you need to pay £5k to get a top notch acoustic from a luthier, but £10k+ for a Martin that sounds as good. I have rarely played a big brand acoustic that impressed me (can't remember one tbh)

ICBM

crunchman said:

Collings don't do it for me either.  I much prefer my Martin.

I like Santa Cruz though.  The best sounding acoustic I've ever played was a Santa Cruz.  It was a pre-war style 12 fret OOO with a really wide nut width (something like 1 7/8"), so there is no way I could have lived with it long term, but it sounded amazing.  I've played a couple of others that were stunning as well.

At this point in time, if I were to get another acoustic, I'd probably get an Atkin.

Santa Cruz a bit better than Collings for me, but I've still never played one I would buy.

I've only played one Atkin and that put me off them completely. It sounded OK if you like the sound of an old, dull guitar but was shockingly badly-made for something at that price - wrong neck angle and uneven fretting with sharp ends.

I've also played a couple of Bourgeois, which were beautifully-made and 'perfect' sounding, but for me still rather characterless.

I just prefer the sound of Gibsons, Martins, Guilds and other traditional 'big brand' guitars, and it's certainly not to do with brand snobbery.

steveh

ICBM said:

Oddly, my experience is that guitars from Gibson and Martin usually sound better and always have much more character than Collings, Santa Cruz and other high-end guitars, which I always find very bland and uninteresting despite being 'good'.

Big gap between shops like Collings and sole-luthiers. I'd place guitars from Collings, Santa Cruz etc. far closer to bigger "quality" factory producers like Martin, Taylor than to sole luthiers who are making around 10 a year. Collings prob make that many in a day at least.

I remember Neville Martin's review of a Colings dread a hundred years ago in Guitarist, where he went mental about it. Off I went to the Acoustic Guitar Centre Wapping (RIP) and tried plenty but couldn't quite hear it. I even went so far as to buy one a while later so that I could live with one at home, in an attempt to "get it". I never did. It was a fabulously crisply built instrument but not very inspiring to play. And the price for those guitars get you well into the sole luthier ballpark.  

crunchman

steveh said:

ICBM said:

Oddly, my experience is that guitars from Gibson and Martin usually sound better and always have much more character than Collings, Santa Cruz and other high-end guitars, which I always find very bland and uninteresting despite being 'good'.

Big gap between shops like Collings and sole-luthiers. I'd place guitars from Collings, Santa Cruz etc. far closer to bigger "quality" factory producers like Martin, Taylor than to sole luthiers who are making around 10 a year. Collings prob make that many in a day at least.

I remember Neville Martin's review of a Colings dread a hundred years ago in Guitarist, where he went mental about it. Off I went to the Acoustic Guitar Centre Wapping (RIP) and tried plenty but couldn't quite hear it. I even went so far as to buy one a while later so that I could live with one at home, in an attempt to "get it". I never did. It was a fabulously crisply built instrument but not very inspiring to play. And the price for those guitars get you well into the sole luthier ballpark.  

I missed out on a Martin in that shop (it might have moved to Liverpool Street by then).  I tried an HD28V that was amazing.  I went back a couple of weeks later to buy it and it had sold.  That one was an absolute cannon.  The one I have now doesn't have the same punch to the sound, although the sound is well balanced, and it sounds good recorded, and sounds very good plugged in.

ICBM

steveh said:

Big gap between shops like Collings and sole-luthiers. I'd place guitars from Collings, Santa Cruz etc. far closer to bigger "quality" factory producers like Martin, Taylor than to sole luthiers who are making around 10 a year. Collings prob make that many in a day at least.

I've played plenty of sole-luthier guitars too... but not a single one I would buy, regardless of quality. We're probably looking for different things. What I like in the sound of a guitar, I find in traditional 'factory' guitars and I don't think that paying five or ten times as much for someone to build it by hand has any advantage. No disrespect intended to hand builders.

For what it's worth I owned an earlier Lowden once - beautifully made, but I never got on with the sound of it. Much preferred my beaten-up old J-45, which I stupidly sold because it was too fragile to put a pickup in and gig with.

earwighoney

ICBM said:

I've played plenty of sole-luthier guitars too... but not a single one I would buy, regardless of quality. We're probably looking for different things. What I like in the sound of a guitar, I find in traditional 'factory' guitars and I don't think that paying five or ten times as much for someone to build it by hand has any advantage. No disrespect intended to hand builders.

I'm of the opinion one can have both, I have factory guitars (some very cheap, some mid bracket) and sole luthier instruments, for the latter for pretty much most good nylon strung guitars (well looking at ones above a grand) come from either sole luthier or small workshops, there aren't really much for big factories. I have a toe in the flamenco side of things, and had a quick look at the inventory of the largest retailers of 'pro' instruments, and there wasn't a single factory made instrument there.

steveh said:

 As ever, at a certain threshold you start paying for the "name". The key is to identify good luthiers on their way up before they becomes "names" - I had the first Kostal out of his own shop and similar for Tom Sands. Once established, acoustic luthiers can name their price because at 10 guitars a year, you only need 30 orders to have a 3-year wait list. Someone gets "hot" over on the AGF forum, and their order book is full 10 seconds later.  

Some good points there Steve. I used to post on the AGF/UMGF, and I noticed like with the electric guitar (maybe it applies to classical guitars as well?) there seem to be a maker of the moment, that comes along every few years or so that generates a huge amount of excitement amongst the forums.  It's not just for guitars, I've noticed the very same thing for some of my other hobbies, users on some forums go absolutely crazy over certain new release products that look to reinvent/improve on products from yesteryear.

For electric guitars, a few years back there was a huge craze for modified Tweed amps like Lazy J, now everyone seems to have a Helix and so on.  On the AGF, for a while there seemed to be an obsession with 'The Tree', and in the UK the guitar Martin Simpson's playing this year seems to be the most desirable maker. On UMGF, Pre War Guitars seem to be the hot flavour.

Not that I have anything against it and there's nothing wrong with wanting a desirable guitar or object from one's favourite hobby, I myself have chased the dragon for the desirable sole luthier guitar and it brought me pleasure for sure.  The process of choosing a custom guitar and having the specifications tailored for one's needs/desires can be an incredibly enjoyable process.

I've rambled on and I'm not sure what my point was!

The OP said something about sole luthier instruments in the electric guitar side of things, I've played a few of Darren's @Danielsguitars and they are truly exquisite, I'd buy one of his guitars in a heartbeat.

ToneControl

I played a load of small-workshop guitars at the Acoustic shop in Brighton
That made my mind up for me

Massive differences between luthiers for sound and responsiveness
Easy to find one that suits your hands and ears

Maybe ICBM just happens to like the old US factory sound, I'm assuming his ears still work after working with amps for decades ;-)

earwighoney

ToneControl said:

I played a load of small-workshop guitars at the Acoustic shop in Brighton
That made my mind up for me

Massive differences between luthiers for sound and responsiveness
Easy to find one that suits your hands and ears

Maybe ICBM just happens to like the old US factory sound, I'm assuming his ears still work after working with amps for decades ;-)

TAMCO, a shame they'll stop selling guitars.

I went there a few years ago and it was a really educational experience to try some of the guitars they had in stock.  There were some stunners, but some absolute stinkers as well.

meltedbuzzbox

The biggest and main benefit to big brand guitars is the plethora of choice and samples to try.
I can play 100000000 strats to find a special one that I love.
If I engage with a luthier there is no guarantee I will end up with a guitar I love. 

Danielsguitars

earwighoney said:

ICBM said:

I've played plenty of sole-luthier guitars too... but not a single one I would buy, regardless of quality. We're probably looking for different things. What I like in the sound of a guitar, I find in traditional 'factory' guitars and I don't think that paying five or ten times as much for someone to build it by hand has any advantage. No disrespect intended to hand builders.

I'm of the opinion one can have both, I have factory guitars (some very cheap, some mid bracket) and sole luthier instruments, for the latter for pretty much most good nylon strung guitars (well looking at ones above a grand) come from either sole luthier or small workshops, there aren't really much for big factories. I have a toe in the flamenco side of things, and had a quick look at the inventory of the largest retailers of 'pro' instruments, and there wasn't a single factory made instrument there.

steveh said:

 As ever, at a certain threshold you start paying for the "name". The key is to identify good luthiers on their way up before they becomes "names" - I had the first Kostal out of his own shop and similar for Tom Sands. Once established, acoustic luthiers can name their price because at 10 guitars a year, you only need 30 orders to have a 3-year wait list. Someone gets "hot" over on the AGF forum, and their order book is full 10 seconds later.  

Some good points there Steve. I used to post on the AGF/UMGF, and I noticed like with the electric guitar (maybe it applies to classical guitars as well?) there seem to be a maker of the moment, that comes along every few years or so that generates a huge amount of excitement amongst the forums.  It's not just for guitars, I've noticed the very same thing for some of my other hobbies, users on some forums go absolutely crazy over certain new release products that look to reinvent/improve on products from yesteryear.

For electric guitars, a few years back there was a huge craze for modified Tweed amps like Lazy J, now everyone seems to have a Helix and so on.  On the AGF, for a while there seemed to be an obsession with 'The Tree', and in the UK the guitar Martin Simpson's playing this year seems to be the most desirable maker. On UMGF, Pre War Guitars seem to be the hot flavour.

Not that I have anything against it and there's nothing wrong with wanting a desirable guitar or object from one's favourite hobby, I myself have chased the dragon for the desirable sole luthier guitar and it brought me pleasure for sure.  The process of choosing a custom guitar and having the specifications tailored for one's needs/desires can be an incredibly enjoyable process.

I've rambled on and I'm not sure what my point was!

The OP said something about sole luthier instruments in the electric guitar side of things, I've played a few of Darren's @Danielsguitars and they are truly exquisite, I'd buy one of his guitars in a heartbeat.

Lol thanks Shubs, start saving a few pennies, I've probably got something you'd like kicking about or hung up 

steveh

ToneControl said:

I played a load of small-workshop guitars at the Acoustic shop in Brighton
That made my mind up for me. Massive differences between luthiers for sound and responsiveness

I used to like the ones that Trevor had put new strings on...within living memory!

Seriously, I loved that place: Jason Kostal said it was the best selection of high-end steel-strings anywhere, including Dream Guitars, Luthiers Colection etc. Not many places you can walk in and play a Somogyi, followed by a Traugott. Very sad that Trevor is no longer selling guitars. Perhaps there's room again now that TNAG have left the UK? Having a shop with rent etc. doesn't seem to make sense when practically none of your trade is walk-in, especially with GAK 10 minutes away. 

I once spent a day playing guitars there and one blew my mind, a Claxton OM that was just sooooo refined. It was also 11K so I left without it. However, I was sensible enough to write about my love for it on the AGF, so the owner was able to track me down when he needed to sell it to fund some other adventure.