Squier Jag trem not returning to pitch

jonnyburgo

Love my Jag, best I've had except for the trem, if I set it so that I can only pitch down, it's fine and returns to its spot, however if I have it in full wobble it's all over the show, sometimes sharp and sometimes flat, my nut is well greasy and the bridge is half mustang saddles and works great, I have a buzz stop fitted (not that I think that makes any difference to stability). I've read about someone filing the trem pivot point so it doesn't stuck but I haven't taken it apart to look tbh. 

Funkfingers

Which exact model of Squier Jaguar is under discussion? Classic Vibe, Vintage Modified, Player, Contemporary, other? There are several ways in which the possible combinations of hardware can contribute to tuning instability.

Is the vibrato tailpiece stock? Have you modified or upgraded any of it?

Is the bridge a Fender type with freedom to rock slightly when the vibrato is used or fixed like a Tune-o-Matic? 

The pivot plate on budget tailpieces has the sharp edges and deformities that you would expect from a punch machine. Tidying these up improves matters.

jonnyburgo

its a VM jobbie, hasnt had any upgrades.

ICBM

Do all the strings go out of tune in the same direction at the same time? If not, it can’t be the tailpiece.

Do the strings go out in the same direction as the last arm movement? If yes the problem is most likely at the bridge end, if they go out in the opposite direction it’s at the nut end.

The bridge is a likely cause if it isn’t rocking, and the buzz stop will make it worse.

bbill335

"buzz stop"? more like "problems begin"!

simonhpieman

Definitely get the buzz stop off there. A well setup Jag shouldn't need one. And if you've got Mustang saddles you definitely don't need one.

How do you set up a Jag to only pitch down? That's a new one on me. Guess you can do it by leaning the bridge back or forth in its thimble so it's touching it? If so, avoid doing that as step one.

I'd advise making sure you've got at least 10s on it. My VM was fine with 10s (though I'd got hold of a USA bridge for a tenner or so which was a slight upgrade).

Once it's tuned up to pitch, wiggle the bridge and make sure it's in the middle of the thimble, at a flat angle to the guitar, if that makes sense.

In fact, that's just made me think, have your bridge posts slipped? Are the grey pointy ends poking out the bottom of the chrome section or have they recessed inside? That might mean your bridge isn't "rocking" properly within the thimble and might be causing the slipping. Obvioisly you'll have to detune and take the whole bridge out to check this. I've found the adjustable posts can wobble themselves back up into the recess on certain bridges. Adjust them back out again and maybe loctite them in place once they're back in place.

This is all quite hard to explain without oodles of text. Does any of that make sense?

Funkfingers

simonhpieman said:

How do you set up a Jag to only pitch down? That's a new one on me.

The only thing that can restrict the travel of the Jaguar vibrato tailpiece is the lock button (if present). 

My recollection is that MIJ/CIJ Jags had the button but lacked a vital flat metal part that actually prevented the strings going sharp after a breakage.

Does the budget tailpiece on the Squier have the lock mechanism?

I suppose that it might be possible to attach something on the underside of the tailpiece baseplate to physically prevent upward wobble.

A literal interpretation of the expression "downward only" is that it describes the movement of the bridge rather than the tailpiece. If the entire bridge were positioned with its resting position leaning towards the tailpiece, it could only rock towards the fingerboard. (This suggests a complete misunderstanding about how the vibrato system works.) 

Time for photographs, methinks.

jonnyburgo

On the Squier there is a screw where the lock button is on Fenders, clockwise this raises the trem so that it's resting place is in a raised position where it stops against the plate if that makes sense, thereby prevent it pulling sharp because its got nowhere to go, sorry not really familiar with the terminology of or indeed the mechanics of trem systems, might rey removing the buzz stop and when I do I'll get the trem off and have a butchers at its insides, thanks for the advice chaps. 

Funkfingers

jonnyburgo said:

On the Squier, there is a screw where the lock button is on Fenders. Clockwise, this raises the trem so that it's resting place is in a raised position where it stops against the plate if that makes sense 

It does. 

The earlier misunderstanding was entirely mine. I am only familiar with the vintage Fender design. 

The mechanism you describe on your Squier VM is markedly different. It will be interesting to see what is going on with the budget lock mechanism.

freakboy1610

I replaced my Squier Jazzmaster trem with a Hosco model. It's made in Japan and functions perfectly. It also has the locking mechanism like the Fender unit. Quite inexpensive:
https://www.axecaster.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=647
I also bought a Staytrem arm and collet. 

meltedbuzzbox

The avri system used to be available for about 50 or 60 used.

jonnyburgo

freakboy1610 said:

I replaced my Squier Jazzmaster trem with a Hosco model. It's made in Japan and functions perfectly. It also has the locking mechanism like the Fender unit. Quite inexpensive:
https://www.axecaster.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=647
I also bought a Staytrem arm and collet. 

Thanks for the link mate

simonhpieman

Thanks for the clarification on that - adjusting the screw in lieu of the locking button makes sense, although I wonder if adjusting it to that extreme has some kind of effect on spring tension and hence the issue with tuning.

Someone with a better engineering brain than me might well know why that would make no actual difference but I'm sure there's some kind of benefit gained by trem spring tension being in a "floating" position... Or rather, I'm sure I've heard it's not that great to have one part of the trem touching another like that (I've used the locking button before and it definitely works without "full extreme" adjustment like that).

I'm rambling. Managed to get myself some 8.5% beers today. Apologies!

jonnyburgo

I took the trem of today, took it apart and rounded off any sharp contact point, restrung with new set of 11s and perhaps most importantly, left off the buzz stop, and it pretty much goes back to pitch every time, by ear it does but on the Snark it's like 1 little segment off, so it was either the trem, the buzz stop or both, cheers guys

stickyfiddle

Sounds good. Buzzstops seem to be one of those things that felt like a good idea for a short time back in the day but actually make everything worse if you actually want to use the trem, while also removing some of the character of the guitar by muting the behind-the-bridge resonance.