Removing Frets

thegummy

What kind of skill / hassle is involved in removing frets from a guitar? How big a job?

Something I could do fairly easily myself? A small job for a guitar shop? Or a long, expensive job for a specialist?

It's a classical guitar I'm thinking of. I'm assuming it can be played like a fretless guitar once the frets are pulled out, if that's a wrong assumption please let me know.

TTony

It's not a hard job - but you need to do it carefully to avoid damaging the fretboard.

Some advise heating the fret first to soften any glue used to hold it in place.  Then use fret pullers to get between the bottom of the fret and the fretboard, working them along the length of the fret to gradually lift the fret out of the slot.

The main risk is pulling too hard/fast and chipping the slot as you pull the fret out.

Funkfingers

thegummy said:

It's a classical guitar I'm thinking of. I'm assuming it can be played like a fretless guitar once the frets are pulled out, if that's a wrong assumption please let me know.

Fretless guitar is fine for single note melodies and double stops in Standard tuning. True chords (three notes and over) are easier to execute in open tunings. 

Open G puts you into barre plus two fingers territory. DADGAD gets a bit Arabic. Joni Mitchell tunings open up all sorts of possibilities.

Proper classical/Spanish guitars have a flat fingerboard. This could be a pain to chord on - even in open tunings.

thegummy

TTony said:

It's not a hard job - but you need to do it carefully to avoid damaging the fretboard.

Some advise heating the fret first to soften any glue used to hold it in place.  Then use fret pullers to get between the bottom of the fret and the fretboard, working them along the length of the fret to gradually lift the fret out of the slot.

The main risk is pulling too hard/fast and chipping the slot as you pull the fret out.

Thanks for the reply.

Do you think the potential damage would generally be cosmetic or might also spoil the playability of the guitar? I'd have thought cosmetic which I'd be a lot happier to risk but just checking.

I wonder if I'd be able to get a grip with normal pliers to avoid having to buy a specific tool.

Funkfingers said:

thegummy said:

It's a classical guitar I'm thinking of. I'm assuming it can be played like a fretless guitar once the frets are pulled out, if that's a wrong assumption please let me know.

Fretless guitar is fine for single note melodies and double stops in Standard tuning. True chords (three notes and over) are easier to execute in open tunings. 

Open G puts you into barre plus two fingers territory. DADGAD gets a bit Arabic. Joni Mitchell tunings open up all sorts of possibilities.

Proper classical/Spanish guitars have a flat fingerboard. This could be a pain to chord on - even in open tunings.

Cheers for the advice. I'm not really sure what I'd want to play on it to be honest. There's a recording of Erkan Ogur playing what I assume to be Turkish style music on a fretless classical guitar that I've always really loved and that's what's made me want to try it out so the DADGAD getting a bit Arabic sounds appealing (might be showing my ignorance if Turkish music has no relation to Arabic music - I'm thinking it's geographically close).

From a quick Google, though, there doesn't seem to be anything in the way of mass produced budget fretless guitars so converting a normal fretted one is my only option really. I'm imagining I give up in frustration due to it being so difficult to play but I still really want to give it a go lol.

WezV

Don't try pliers.

You can try some snips, but the end needs to be ground flush so they go under the fret easily.


Heat is essential for reducing chips, but this is one of those jobs where you really don't know how hard its going to be until you start pulling.   

Sometimes they pop out easily and you could get by with minimal tools.   Other times you find every single one is a pain and having the right tools is the difference between destroying the board or not..

On an easy board, you can slide a knife under a fret end, wiggle gently and it just pops out leaving a clean un damaged fret slot and board

On a hard one you need tape either side of the slot to catch chips.  Heat,  a blade to start lifting the fret, and snips pullers to gently walk it out.  Then thin superglue to immediately stick back the chips that happen on every one

Funkfingers

thegummy said:

there doesn't seem to be anything in the way of mass produced budget fretless guitars so converting a normal fretted one is my only option

Fretless guitar is a very niche market. Most examples will be bespoke commissions. 

De-fretting an old guitar and filling the slots is a lot of work. Depending on the glue(s) originally used, it might prove easier to remove the entire fingerboard and have a new one fitted.

thermionic

Classical guitars don’t have truss rods, right? If so, removing the frets may adversely affect the bow of the neck.

FelineGuitars

It's a half hour or less for a well equipped tech or repairman . 

You are in Glasgow - there are a few guys you could turn to 

IS ICBM or Paul Robertson near you ?

thegummy

Appreciate all the replies.

Sounds like it might not be something to DIY.

Hadn't even thought about the truss rod/neck bow issue. Given Feline's reply it seems it won't necessarily be a problem though.

Re: the filling of the slots, I was kind of thinking it would be okay to just leave them unfilled - would that not be feasible? Might be a silly idea, I don't really know the first thing about fretless guitars.

ICBM's shop is close and I also have a lot of faith in a place called The Guitar Workshop from previous experience so I think I'll get one of them to do it if I do go for this rather than having to buy a tool and then still risk messing it up.

Thanks again 

more

It is a mistake to pull out the frets. You need a soldering iron and a wire cutter like this one https://www.toolstation.com/wiha-end-cutting-nippers/p76374?utm

You start at one end of the fret with a soldering iron and with the gutters, moving across the fret .you slowly wedge the fret out,  You will need a good flat sanding block to refinish the fingerboard. You can use the dust, from the fingerboard with super glue to fill the fret holes. Classical guitars don't have a truss rod, because they don't need them. Removing the frets will not change that .

Funkfingers

thegummy said:

Re: the filling of the slots, I was kind of thinking it would be okay to just leave them unfilled - would that not be feasible? 

Feasible? Yes. Advisable? No.

Unfilled fret slots leave pairs of parallel edges right where your fingertips should be holding the strings down against the fingerboard. Glissandi will be punctuated by clunking noises as you slide across the gaps.

thegummy said:

I don't really know the first thing about fretless guitars.

On fretless instruments, the strings have to be fingered bang on where the frets used to be rather than between.

To begin with, you would need to put practice and concentration into achieving accurate intonation. Eventually, you build sufficient confidence to mess with intonation and create interesting effects within a band context.

WezV

more said:

It is a mistake to pull out the frets. You need a soldering iron and a wire cutter like this one https://www.toolstation.com/wiha-end-cutting-nippers/p76374?utm

You start at one end of the fret with a soldering iron and with the gutters, moving across the fret .you slowly wedge the fret out,  You will need a good flat sanding block to refinish the fingerboard. You can use the dust, from the fingerboard with super glue to fill the fret holes. Classical guitars don't have a truss rod, because they don't need them. Removing the frets will not change that .

Most would describe that as pulling the frets.

Those wire cutters will need to be ground as flat as possible on the end first, or the fret will be all the way out before you can get the cutters underneath.

....


The idea the neck may bow without frets seems to be the opposite to what happens during compression fretting, you use a wider tanged fret wire to force the neck straight

thermionic

I think I read that compression fretting thing in the context of early Martins which had no truss rod. A classical has much lower string tension than a steel string of course. Just thought it was worth mentioning in case.

WezV

Compression fretting is still used on classical, they still bow forward over time.


Reminds me I have a 60s hofner classical with a severe neck bow I need to correct at some point

Flip

In my experience, getting the frets out isn't the hard or expensive part, it's getting the new ones in. Ideally, you need a press. Hammering is tricky and anything between the fret and the hammer makes it doubly difficult to do accurately. I did one with my grandson once and never again. Sorry to be a dampener.

SteveRobinson

Getting the frets our cleanly is one of the most important parts of the job. A chipped board is time-consuming to correct.

I recently used compression fretting on a Strat neck that wouldn't come straight. It worked a treat.

BillDL

I've done this twice.  Once was way back to about a year after I had started playing and the cheapo nylon string was surplus to requirements and worth sacrificing as an experiment, and the second was years later after I had some experience with pulling frets and refretting.  Neither experiment worked satisfactorily and I ended up scrapping the guitars.  One of the main issues is that normal tension nylon strings don't seem to have enough tension to work on a fretless neck, and cheap guitars can rarely take the additional tension of "hard tension" strings without bowing the neck.

My first shot at this involved using a grindstone to shave the frets down to almost fingerboard level, filing the leftover sliver of the tang flush to the wood with a fine file, and drop-filling the gaps around the barbs of the tang with superglue.  When sanded down with fine sandpaper the slight lumps of sanded-down supeglue around the leftover tangs still in the wood were almost imperceptible, but the final project played like crap.

For my second shot at this I pulled the frets with ground-off end snips, widened the slots with a fine set saw, tapped in and superglued some lollipop sticks into the slots, and chiselled then sanded them level when the superglue dried.  It played like crap.

If I had a cheap sacrificial nylon string at my disposal and had the time and inclination to try this again and use hard tension strings, I would probably try and find some thin aluminium or hardwood like maple or ebony, make these filler strips a very snug fit in the slots where they had to be very lightly tapped in, and hopefully that would create a very slight back-bow on the neck to compensate for the additional tension of the hard tension strings.  I have little knowledge of violins, fiddles, cellos, etc, but I believe that they still need a tiny bit of relief on the neck.

Winny_Pooh

I'd be wary on doing it on a neck without a trussrod.

I have used an electric unfretted ebony board neck with pre cut fret slots and filled it with maple laminate strips & superglue.




Due to the tension needed in your case I'd get a luthier to put a new fretless thicker ebony/rosewood onto a decent guitar. 

Or if you want to go electric then look here  for a budget unfretted neck:

https://www.boobooguitars.co.uk/collections/guitar-necks

TristanJohnson

It's a job that can go wrong very easily - if in doubt take it to a tech near you.

axisus

Some guitars easy, others not. You may not know which until you start. Also, there’s a reason why Ron Thal and Guthrie are the only two people who ever play fretless guitar.