Further wiring woes and a request for advice

Kalimna

Greetings again folks,
I finished up wiring oyr latest build, consisting of 3 mini humbuckers (2-core wiring), 2 tone controls (A500k pots with 22nF on bridge and 15nF on neck+mid), one volume (A500k) and a 5-way blade switch on upper horn.
The 3 leads coming off tge 5-way are routed back through the body to the control cavity with their shielded part soldered together.
The humbucker wires, going to the 5-way do not have their shield soldered to anything at the 'free' end but are touching the other shields giving continuity.
All solder joins seem good, though may not be in the correct place.

My problem is threefold, and I would be grateful for any trouble shooting pointers or suggestions why this might be happening. 

1 - volume works, but almost on-off at very earliest part of turn from full volume.

2 - the tone controls hwve very little effect, though it is present.

3 - There is little difference in sound between the pickup positions.

Many thanks for reading this, and advice given.

Adam

tanihhiavlt

Pictures of the soldered points would help

It explains the reality quicker and clearer and allows us to spot things you may not yet know to notice.

Personally I use a linear pot on the volume control, makes for a more effective gain control when used with drive pedals, so that may be a thing to try.

Funkfingers

Probably something basic, done backwards.

e.g. Right-handed circuitry in left-handed guitar.

Following schematic diagram for CRL two-pole selector switch but using Japanese YM-50 switch. 

The YM-50 switch works exactly like a CRL but its poles are on the "wrong" sides of the chassis. Thus, the terminal positions are transposed. 

If you follow a conventional Stratocaster type wiring diagram without transposing the connections, you end up with some of the pickups selected all of the time. Similarly, the tone controls may work but not on the pickups that you intended.

Kalimna

I realise that photo's are useful, and should have posted some up, but i find it difficult to take clear pictures of soldering for some reason.
Hold on whilst i upload to imgur.

Interestingly when i unscrewed the 5-way to take a photo, i plugged it in and the problems seem to either have gone or vastly improved. It had occured to me that a short somewhere might be the cause - perhaps the photo's will make it clearer. 

Cheers,
Adam

Kalimna

Right. Here we go, apologies if just the links appear, Im doing this from my phone.

The control cavity (there is a break in the ground lead between pots near the short orange wire)

https://i.imgur.com/BhvwlBQ.jpeg

5 way switch in-situ

https://i.imgur.com/wE4Fml2.jpeg

More 5 way switch

https://i.imgur.com/NrCMsg2.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/EWy4SZ3.jpeg


https://i.imgur.com/1zJXro6.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/Zb7qc6p.jpeg

Thanks for looking,
Adam

Funkfingers

Kalimna said:

3 mini humbuckers (2-core wiring). … There is little difference in sound between the pickup positions.

Just to clarify, by mini humbucker, do you mean;
1) the small, metal covered item associated with the Gibson Les Paul Deluxe and some old American Epiphone semi-hollow guitars? 

2) Firebird pickups? 

3) Those narrow, dual coil pickups that fit through Stratocaster pickguards with no need for modification?


Cheaper examples of the latter can be wound so excessively hot that it is difficult to get much tonal variety across the bridge, middle and neck selections. They all sound heavily compressed and only really work well with high gain overdrive.

Danny1969

From your description is sounds as though something is loading the pickups, like an almost short to earth, semi conductive shield on pickup wire maybe ?

If you have a meter with Ohms range measure from pickup hot to ground and see what you have ? 

Funkfingers

Kalimna said:

https://i.imgur.com/1zJXro6.jpeg

In this photograph, it appears that the exposed bare wire that forms the link for the neck/centre tone control terminals may be touching the protruding end of a contact from the other pole of the switch. (One end of the red insulated jumper wire.) Thus, the neck and centre pickups will be connected to the volume pot at all times.

tanihhiavlt

I've never seen silver braided hook-up wire used with a 5 way before. And never really wondered why.

Where I've fitted silver hook-up in stuff like a 335 I've covered the braid with shrink wrap when it gets near the switch to prevent it inadvertently earthing anything it touches.

The 5 way switch is pretty exposed and looks well-soldered but I'd still wonder if the sliver-braid might touch it in that small space.

Kalimna

Funkfingers said:

Kalimna said:

3 mini humbuckers (2-core wiring). … There is little difference in sound between the pickup positions.

Just to clarify, by mini humbucker, do you mean;
1) the small, metal covered item associated with the Gibson Les Paul Deluxe and some old American Epiphone semi-hollow guitars? 

2) Firebird pickups? 

3) Those narrow, dual coil pickups that fit through Stratocaster pickguards with no need for modification?


Cheaper examples of the latter can be wound so excessively hot that it is difficult to get much tonal variety across the bridge, middle and neck selections. They all sound heavily compressed and only really work well with high gain overdrive.

Happy to clarify
These are the pickups, only difference is they have a foil top on mine. Fitrebird style.
Mini Humbucker SunBird — home (sunbearpickups.com)

Kalimna

Danny1969 said:

From your description is sounds as though something is loading the pickups, like an almost short to earth, semi conductive shield on pickup wire maybe ?

If you have a meter with Ohms range measure from pickup hot to ground and see what you have ? 

That is kindof what I thought too, I will recheck resistance when I get home to confirm. 

Kalimna

Funkfingers said:

Kalimna said:

https://i.imgur.com/1zJXro6.jpeg

In this photograph, it appears that the exposed bare wire that forms the link for the neck/centre tone control terminals may be touching the protruding end of a contact from the other pole of the switch. (One end of the red insulated jumper wire.) Thus, the neck and centre pickups will be connected to the volume pot at all times.

Cheers - I think that *may* be just a feature of the image rather than a short, but again, I shall check when Im home from work.

Kalimna

tanihhiavlt said:

I've never seen silver braided hook-up wire used with a 5 way before. And never really wondered why.

Where I've fitted silver hook-up in stuff like a 335 I've covered the braid with shrink wrap when it gets near the switch to prevent it inadvertently earthing anything it touches.

The 5 way switch is pretty exposed and looks well-soldered but I'd still wonder if the sliver-braid might touch it in that small space.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I actually meant to shrink wrap at the time, but it was *very* late at night and a combination of tiredness and not wanting to fire up a slightly noisy hot air tool

The braided wire is simply either from the pickups, or hookup because of the long cable runs through the body (because the switch is on the upper horn) and I wanted it shielded without the faff of copper foil or conductive paint. I suspect that normally you wouldnt see it on a 5-way because they are not usually used in humbucker equipped guitars (which rarely have 3 pickups) and the normal single coils have 2 cloth braided wires rather than centre+shield of humbuckers.

Adam

tanihhiavlt

Are you going to remove each and solder it or use some electricians tape? 

I recently assembled a reverb pedal and left the led off as I couldn't be bothered to do it just then ... for the 335 I eventually took the wiring out and bought transparent heat shrink for the braid.

I've kinda stopped trying to get things perfect on the first go, but I do treat myself by going back and sprucing stuff up later  

Kalimna

tanihhiavlt said:

Are you going to remove each and solder it or use some electricians tape? 

I recently assembled a reverb pedal and left the led off as I couldn't be bothered to do it just then ... for the 335 I eventually took the wiring out and bought transparent heat shrink for the braid.

I've kinda stopped trying to get things perfect on the first go, but I do treat myself by going back and sprucing stuff up later  

I think I will re-solder and heat-shrink for a couple of reasons. Due to the lack of space, just using tape would be rather finicky, the joints have now been stressed quite a bit by repeated movement of the switch unit so don;t want joint failure to rear its head. Also, I'd like it to look a bit neater
I know what you mean about not first-time perfect, and I will need to go back and do a proper setup (though gotta say the action and relief were nearly spot-on at first stringing, as was intonation. I would like the action higher, but am wary of raising the wraparound bridge further.

Adam

ICBM

From your description of the fault, and that moving the switch seemed to fix it, I would say it's a short, probably downstream of the volume control so it's heavily loading the volume pot output.

Is there any cavity shielding paint, especially around the jack? This sort of partial short (it can't be a full one as the output would be muted entirely) is often caused by that, rather than metal touching metal.

Kalimna

Nope, no shielding paint at all. Unless the metallic lacquer (waterbased with clear nitro topcoat) has a degree of electrical conduction.

Cheers,
Adam

Dave_Mc

Funkfingers said:

Following schematic diagram for CRL two-pole selector switch but using Japanese YM-50 switch. 

The YM-50 switch works exactly like a CRL but its poles are on the "wrong" sides of the chassis. Thus, the terminal positions are transposed. 

If you follow a conventional Stratocaster type wiring diagram without transposing the connections, you end up with some of the pickups selected all of the time. Similarly, the tone controls may work but not on the pickups that you intended.

Oh wow. I had awful bother getting a couple of those YM-50 switches to work (read: I eventually gave up and used a different switch ) so that explains it.

I guess I should do some digging online, lol, to see if I can find a diagram.

Funkfingers

tanihhiavlt said:

I've kinda stopped trying to get things perfect on the first go 

I'm the complete opposite. I try solder earnly wernce. It is always easier to work on brand new, clean components. The result invariably looks better - as if I knew what I was doing - because I did.

I even take this to the extent of determining the best order in which to solder the parts into circuit. 

The new CTS push-pull pots with an integral PCB for the switch connections are a case in point. The jumpers and coil conductors need to be in place on the PCB before the input, output and ground connections are made to the normal looped terminals.

 

tanihhiavlt

You're right, I didn't mean bodge it, more if it works but isn't pretty that's okay.

I've had my tokai 335-alike since 2005 and as I'm a lefty it came 'meh good enough' brand new, a bit buzzy, reversed cheap pots and a set of okay pickups... many pickup, pots and capacitors later it sounds as I always wanted it to...

Early on I had to learn to pace myself, not bite off too big a project, estimate conservatively, have somewhere safe to store incomplete projects and so on. Today's task is "check power I'd getting to the engineers thumb compressor I made" that done it will be put together and placed in storage for audio probing or whatever...

It feels a bit like the prisoner who went on to be The Count of Monte Cristo... slowly slowly.

Dave_Mc

Funkfingers said:

tanihhiavlt said:

I've kinda stopped trying to get things perfect on the first go 

I'm the complete opposite. I try solder earnly wernce. It is always easier to work on brand new, clean components. The result invariably looks better - as if I knew what I was doing - because I did.

I even take this to the extent of determining the best order in which to solder the parts into circuit. 

The new CTS push-pull pots with an integral PCB for the switch connections are a case in point. The jumpers and coil conductors need to be in place on the PCB before the input, output and ground connections are made to the normal looped terminals.

 

Yeah agreed. I'm still pretty rubbish at soldering, but I'm getting a lot better, and it's a lot easier to do it right first time. I'm also getting to the point where I sort of expect it to work once I'm finished. Not very long ago I was shocked if I didn't have to troubleshoot- now I'm shocked if I do One thing I would do, though, is if I have new pickups which I'm dying to hear, I'll sometimes do an easier job so I can hear them sooner- so I might not bother swapping pots or something like that, even though eventually I might mean to. It does depend on the guitar, though, because as you said, sometimes it's easier to do that more difficult job at the start when everything is new and when you can get at the bits easily. Or if it's a complex wiring job, you might have to tear everything down and start from scratch again if you want to add stuff later, so it's easier to do it the way you want from the start...

I totally do that order thing as well, but mainly because I'm a bit clumsy and find it hard to solder properly if I can't get into the cavity easily. Push-pulls/push-pushes are especially bad for that... you really need to solder the bit that's hardest to get at first (usually the pot lugs), or it can be an absolute nightmare.

(I haven't tried those new CTSes yet.)