"Quiet valve amps sound crap" - do they though??

Danny1969

sjo89 said:

Danny1969 said:

There is a point where the volume is so low it's probably not worth bothering with an amp. Like when you can still hear the guitar strings acoustically as well as the sound of the amp. Lot of Youtube bedroom players have that sound  

I keep my amps under the stairs in a large cupboard. There's a mic in there I can put on any of the 3 amps and I monitor that through my DAW. It occurred to me that anyone who wanted a similar setup who didn't have a cupboard could just build a large box and put it in the garden. Maybe even dig a large hole for the box. install a couple of cabs and some mics and cover it back over. I might do that myself 

.....or save yourself the trouble and just buy yourself a modeller which sounds the same as a miced amp...

I have the Pod go which is the same models as the Helix but no, it doesn't sound like a real mic'ed amp to my ears. At least not for my style of slightly overdriven self backing playing. It's a good tool though and perfect for practicing. I also use the little Nux MP plug which is a complete bargain at £55

sjo89

Danny1969 said:

sjo89 said:

Danny1969 said:

There is a point where the volume is so low it's probably not worth bothering with an amp. Like when you can still hear the guitar strings acoustically as well as the sound of the amp. Lot of Youtube bedroom players have that sound  

I keep my amps under the stairs in a large cupboard. There's a mic in there I can put on any of the 3 amps and I monitor that through my DAW. It occurred to me that anyone who wanted a similar setup who didn't have a cupboard could just build a large box and put it in the garden. Maybe even dig a large hole for the box. install a couple of cabs and some mics and cover it back over. I might do that myself 

.....or save yourself the trouble and just buy yourself a modeller which sounds the same as a miced amp...

I have the Pod go which is the same models as the Helix but no, it doesn't sound like a real mic'ed amp to my ears. At least not for my style of slightly overdriven self backing playing. It's a good tool though and perfect for practicing. I also use the little Nux MP plug which is a complete bargain at £55

well, like amps, not all modellers are created equal!

ICBM

I think the trick with modellers is to accept that they don’t sound the same as an amp, and just get a good sound you’re happy with.

Like amps, that’s possible with some modellers and not others, no matter how many different amps they claim to model.

Chuffola

My issue with amps at low volume (i.e. house and not annoying neighbours) isn't that the amps sound crap - they've all sounded fine, especially with pedals for gain etc. But many (in my experience to date, all) valve amps have a floor level of hiss / hum which annoys me. Even solid state amps can have it - the Jazz Chorus series particularly have spectacular low level hiss.  Not noticeable if you get the amp to a decent volume, but at "bedroom" levels, really noticeable. 

I've found - for that reason alone - what suits me best is either a digital solution like a HX Stomp or a desktop amp like a THR. The best "real" amp I've had for zero hiss is the Blues Cube Hot which was all but silent. 

Modulus_Amps

non master volume amps with overly large bright caps on the volume control sound crap at low volume, snip the bright cap or reduce its value and it they would sound great at low volume too

Clecko

monquixote said:

Even more controversial opinion, most flat out cranked amps sound shit.

I have one of the better PCB production models of the Marshall 1962 'Bluesbreaker'. It sounds good enough quiet and clean and it's possible to get a really nice sound out of it at TV volume levels with a dirt pedal.

The story goes that 'the Clapton sound' on his first album with the Bluesbreakers was the result of him putting everything on 10, though clearly not the tremolo. I've tried that with it a couple of times and it doesn't great. It's best with the channels jumpered and the volumes a little over half way, depending on the room size. 

(and yes, I know there are loads of mods that can get them closer to the version Clapton had)

PolarityMan

sjo89 said:

PolarityMan said:

octatonic said:

Tracking louder means you get more power amp and more speaker.
Lower volume is mostly preamp.
I prefer tracking louder, there is a fullness to the sound that you can't simply EQ into the track.
You also get more feedback which is always awesome.

What volume level would you say the threshold is? I've really struggled to get decent results mic'ing an amp in my home studio and I believe volume is likely the main issue which is why for me using a kemper or modelling gets me better results.

I think for home recording why wouldnt you use a modeller? It's been proven they sound as good as a real miced amp a million times over and its obviously way easier. 

I'm not inherently against using modellers or VSTs but would be nice to be able to capture my actual amps too as I have some reasonably nice ones. 

octatonic

PolarityMan said:

octatonic said:

Tracking louder means you get more power amp and more speaker.
Lower volume is mostly preamp.
I prefer tracking louder, there is a fullness to the sound that you can't simply EQ into the track.
You also get more feedback which is always awesome.

What volume level would you say the threshold is? I've really struggled to get decent results mic'ing an amp in my home studio and I believe volume is likely the main issue which is why for me using a kemper or modelling gets me better results.

Louder than you can comfortably record in a residential environment.
It really depends on the amp though.
A Princeton on 4 will rattle the windows.

Yes modellers would be preferable in that situation I think.

octatonic

PolarityMan said:

sjo89 said:

PolarityMan said:

octatonic said:

Tracking louder means you get more power amp and more speaker.
Lower volume is mostly preamp.
I prefer tracking louder, there is a fullness to the sound that you can't simply EQ into the track.
You also get more feedback which is always awesome.

What volume level would you say the threshold is? I've really struggled to get decent results mic'ing an amp in my home studio and I believe volume is likely the main issue which is why for me using a kemper or modelling gets me better results.

I think for home recording why wouldnt you use a modeller? It's been proven they sound as good as a real miced amp a million times over and its obviously way easier. 

I'm not inherently against using modellers or VSTs but would be nice to be able to capture my actual amps too as I have some reasonably nice ones. 

Same here.
And a wide variety of guitar cabs with different speaker combinations.

There isn't a modelled version of the Carol-Ann OD3R that I think sounds as good as the hardware amp I have here.
it isn't so much the amp itself that I have an issue with, it is speaker, mic (plus positioning), preamp, hardware EQ and compressor.

For instance my current approach is to use a combination of an E906 into an API 512 then into a Manley Massive Passive, then into a Distressor plus an AEA R84A ribbon mic into an RPQ500 preamp, then into an Empirical Lil Freq (Neve style EQ) and then into a Crane Song STC8.

Most of that gear isn't available in a modeller emulation, even the Axe FX III which has loads of different cab emulations doesn't have anything like that combination of gear.
If you just want a Marshall into a 4x12 with greenbacks with an SM57  then fine but not everyone does and I've got a way of working that suits me.
I still have modellers too (Axe FX III, Kemper etc).

Modellers have their place but I don't get down with the notion that 'just use a modeller' is good for all people, or even most of them.

LastMantra

I think there's a point where amps just aren't working enough to sound good. Although I've no idea why. Even hifis, headphones need a bit of volume before they sound good. That's talking really pretty quiet right enough. 
I actually run two amps at home and individualy they're pretty quiet (most of the time...so...I don't know 

Everything sounds better louder! 

ICBM

Chuffola said:

My issue with amps at low volume (i.e. house and not annoying neighbours) isn't that the amps sound crap - they've all sounded fine, especially with pedals for gain etc. But many (in my experience to date, all) valve amps have a floor level of hiss / hum which annoys me. Even solid state amps can have it - the Jazz Chorus series particularly have spectacular low level hiss.  Not noticeable if you get the amp to a decent volume, but at "bedroom" levels, really noticeable.

That’s why I attenuate my valve amp (Mesa Blue Angel) at home, not because I’m driving it hard enough to need to otherwise.

Even my Peavey Transtube might be noisy enough to need it if it was in the bedroom not the workshop.

Pabcrane

I've found most valve amps have an individual sweet spot but no, I don't think they sound crap at low volume. I don't know anyone who says this either I don't think.

Hottubes

My jtm45/100 sounds great on 2.5 i've never bought into the marshalls only sound good cranked to 10 though.

sjo89

Pabcrane said:

I've found most valve amps have an individual sweet spot but no, I don't think they sound crap at low volume. I don't know anyone who says this either I don't think.

Well why do so many amps have attenuators on now and why are people always talking about "good tone at bedroom volume"? Because people believe (valve) amps only sound good when their volume is cranked up. My argument is that even with volume only on 1 or 2 in some cases, they can still sound good. 

Lewy

sjo89 said:

Pabcrane said:

I've found most valve amps have an individual sweet spot but no, I don't think they sound crap at low volume. I don't know anyone who says this either I don't think.

Well why do so many amps have attenuators on now and why are people always talking about "good tone at bedroom volume"? Because people believe (valve) amps only sound good when their volume is cranked up. My argument is that even with volume only on 1 or 2 in some cases, they can still sound good. 

There are plenty of people (on this thread and elsewhere) who don't believe that big valve amps turned down sound bad, but the notion that valve amps need to be turned up to sound their best has most definitely been part of the guitar world narrative for decades. That doesn't mean it's any more true than any of the other cack that's been peddled, but it's definitely been out there. 

TTBZ

octatonic said:

For instance my current approach is to use a combination of an E906 into an API 512 then into a Manley Massive Passive, then into a Distressor plus an AEA R84A ribbon mic into an RPQ500 preamp, then into an Empirical Lil Freq (Neve style EQ) and then into a Crane Song STC8.

Couldn't you shoot an IR of that signal chain with some generic/default settings and get close enough? I get that it's not as fun though and you're stuck with the settings baked in

WiresDreamDisasters

I don't really know how to set a valve amp quiet

Lesgrandepotato

They can sound good, they do sound different people like the natural compression and sag of a driven amp. This only happens when it’s got a crank on. 

Danny1969

If you turn a lot of amps up too loud the sound gets worse to my ears, not better. Loads of players used to get excited about recording their solo's with the head in the control room and the cab in the live room fully cranked. With a lot of amps, especially Marshalls there were all kinds of overtones fully cranked that just weren't that musical, plus random other bits of noise and shed loads of hiss on the the quiet bits. 
The louder the amp the more it interacts with the room as well. I tended to record amps around the volume you would have them on a decent stage. Loud, but no where near on full for the 50 and 100 watt Marshalls and defo not on full for the large Fenders. 

Pabcrane

Lewy said:

sjo89 said:

Pabcrane said:

I've found most valve amps have an individual sweet spot but no, I don't think they sound crap at low volume. I don't know anyone who says this either I don't think.

Well why do so many amps have attenuators on now and why are people always talking about "good tone at bedroom volume"? Because people believe (valve) amps only sound good when their volume is cranked up. My argument is that even with volume only on 1 or 2 in some cases, they can still sound good. 

There are plenty of people (on this thread and elsewhere) who don't believe that big valve amps turned down sound bad, but the notion that valve amps need to be turned up to sound their best has most definitely been part of the guitar world narrative for decades. That doesn't mean it's any more true than any of the other cack that's been peddled, but it's definitely been out there. 

I should have said I don't personally know anyone who says this. I don't doubt that other people out there say that amps sound bad at low volume - otherwise the OP wouldn't have started the thread.