Can't work out the time signature on part of a tune...

fretmeister

Specifically from 3:32 onwards.

I've tried counting a variety of time signatures and nothing static seems to fit so I suspect either changing signatures per bar or the drums and guitar parts are following different time sigs.

Can anyone who listens to more Tool or DT than I do have a listen please?

It's only from 3:32 onwards.

ta

stickyfiddle

Drums feel like 4/4 all the way through that section. Guitars feel like a mix of 2, 4 and possibly a few odd bars of 3. I'm not working it out in detail beyond that!! 

fretmeister

stickyfiddle said:

Drums feel like 4/4 all the way through that section. Guitars feel like a mix of 2, 4 and possibly a few odd bars of 3. I'm not working it out in detail beyond that!! 

This is exactly the issue I'm having!

Bezzer

I'm counting that as 13/4 ... or a compound of 8/4 & 5/4.

I'm probably very wrong technically, but that's where I'm hearing the pulses.  Drums seem to be hinting at the 13/4 due to the static pulse until a fill / flick in the 12th bar.

Mind you, I'm very tied so this could be crap!

octatonic

OK, the drums are just in 4/4.

But the guitar and bass are playing odd groupings against that making it sound a lot more complicated than it actually is.
It is actually a masterful use of that technique.
I am counting the first bit as:

1 2 3
1 2 3
1 2 3
1 2 3 4
1 2 3

Then they change the groupings, mixing up the 3 beat and 4 beat patterns.
I can try to map the whole thing out if I get a bit more time later on but I'd listen to that thinking groups of 3 or 4 beats.

Brilliant tune.

digitalkettle

Sounds great but appears to be just displaced groups against 4/4 drums.

I heard the riff as grouping 3+3+3+4 (i.e. @Bezzer 's 13 count) so that's 3 bars + 1 beat. It starts on a 1...then the second time it starts on a 2, etc...but it's still well syncopated on top of that.

Adji

Haha I love this game (what a loser) reminds me a lot of uni.

The way I would count this is kind of like a polymeter (if that is the right word).
The drums are in 4/4.
The riff goes 6/8, 7/8, 6/8, 7/8

Or you could count the guitars as 13/8, 13/8 to keep it in the same time signature, but the 6, 7 sequence makes more sense to me.

Doesn't mean it's right though

Lesgrandepotato

Ooh that befuddles me. I get the idea it could be in 6/8 then 7/8. I’m a bit thrown by therefore it could be 13/8. 

To me the former suggests a change of rhythm and the latter 13 spread over 8 evenly? Or am I getting confused?

viz

Nice song.

At a macro level, the drums are playing an unchanging slow 2/4 (or a quick 4/4 if you prefer, but it has that 2/4 see-saw, rocking-horse tick-tock to it - not a “1234” but a “1-and-2-and”). 

ThInking in 2/4 then, the whole line has 13 slow-ish beats, made up of 9+4 - a 4.5-bar section of 2 beats each (or you could say 3 bars of 3 beats) and a 2-bar section of 2 beats. 

So, 4.5x2 plus 2x2 = 13 beats. 

But the drummer consistently sticks to the 2/4 beat throughout, so on the first line of 13 beats, the snare beat is on the 2 and the 4 (and the 6, the 8, the 10 and the 12), whereas because 13 is an odd number, the second time round, the snare beat is on the 1 and the 3 (and the 5, 7, 9, 11 and 13).

So tapping your feet alternately, you count, slowly: 
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 - 1 2 3 4

with your feet doing
L R L R L R L R L - R L R L

Then 2nd time round your feet are doing:
R L R L R L R L R - L R L R

Then you're back to the beginning again. And every time you tap your right foot, that's when the snare is hit.

----------------------------------------------------

On a micro level, how do the guitar bits fit in? As mentioned, there are two sections, a 9-beat section (4.5 bars) and a 4-beat section (2 bars):

Section 1 is made up of a "du-du-du-derr-derr-derr" rhythm. Each of them lasts 3 beats. The bolds are where the beat falls.

du-du-du-derr-derr-derr

du-du-du-derr-derr-derr

du-du-du-derr-derr-derr

Section 2 is the chromatic descending bit of 6 chords. 

The first 4 are 0.75 of a beat, so 3 beats total
The last two are 0.5 of a beat, so 1 beat total.

That's your 4 beats. It sounds like this: der-der-der-der-de-de

The chords land on the bold semiquavers: 1 234/1234/1234/1234


Then as I mentioned earlier, the 2nd cycle starts, which is identical except this time the snare is on 1 and 3, which is off-putting. 

After the 2nd cycle, it's back to the 1st cycle again.

newi123

Haven`t listened yet, but a reminder as to how good Kings X were / are. 

I loved his guitar playing on this album, and his guitar tone - it`s up there amongst the very best for me. All solid state. 

He plays Orange Crush heads now I believe? Makes me want to buy one.