Nostaligic 70's and the future

koneguitarist

martinw said:

Lets not get carried away. People stopped buying those old SS 70s amps for a reason **.

It's correct that when there's a good quality, sounds-as-good-as-valve amp on the market, people will buy it. (I would).

There isn't.

There's good reasons for that. Until someone invents an amplification device* that amplifies in the same way as a valve (which isn't likely as there's only us wants that and we don't buy enough to finance the R&D) then yes, the future could well be valves.

 

* - or manages to find a way to make existing SS devices sound exactly like valves. They've been trying for years and not succeeded so far.

** - generalising slightly

I think people have bought enough Peavey SS amps and also the Roland JC120 has a huge fan base proves that it can be done. A good amp is a good amp. valves don't make an amp good, the design and execution of that design makes it good. For every great valve amp there is also some pretty dodgy poorly built valve amps as well. The Blackstar HT range sounds less valve like than a peavey Bandit to my ears.

martinw

koneguitarist said:

I think people have bought enough Peavey SS amps and also the Roland JC120 has a huge fan base proves that it can be done. A good amp is a good amp. valves don't make an amp good, the design and execution of that design makes it good. For every great valve amp there is also some pretty dodgy poorly built valve amps as well. .

I'm afraid I disagree.

Most people buy Peavey SS amps because they can't afford anything else, or because the man in the shop recommended it and they don't know any better. They don't buy them on purely tonal grounds.

I can't agree either that the JC120 has a 'huge fan base'.

Yes, there are some poorly built valve amps, but that doesn't make solid state amps sound any better.

The proof of this subjective pudding is in the eating....valve amps still sell in large numbers, despite all their disadvantages.

EDIT: Just to reiterate, I'm not anti-SS, blindly pro-valve, or anything else. I've even bought and used SS amps in the past, and recommended them to my friends for their specific application and budget. I just don't think SS amps sound as good as valve, and I think I understand the reasons for that.

 

martinw

hywelg said:

martinw said:

Lets not get carried away. People stopped buying those old SS 70s amps for a reason **.

It's correct that when there's a good quality, sounds-as-good-as-valve amp on the market, people will buy it. (I would).

There isn't.

 I really really wanted to try, first hand, the Retro Wreck that was talked about at length a couple of years ago on TGP and then went deathly silent. I'm not sure its even still being made. Shame....

Yes, it showed real promise. I'd love to know what was in it.

martinw

ICBM said:

The problem is that a lot of people do think that the only good sounds come from valve amps, so convincing them that a solid-state amp can sound great while not sounding like a valve amp is hard.

Or maybe they're right, and prefer the sound and feel of valves?

ICBM

martinw said:

ICBM said:

The problem is that a lot of people do think that the only good sounds come from valve amps, so convincing them that a solid-state amp can sound great while not sounding like a valve amp is hard.

Or maybe they're right, and prefer the sound and feel of valves?

I think it would be interesting to genuinely compare them in blind tests. There would be some where it was obvious, certainly - but others much less so... both ways round.

In my opinion there are a lot of valve amps that sound truly dreadful, and only really sell because people believe the valve hype. They sound nothing like the classic great valve amps, and in fact much further away from them than a decent solid-state amp can.

martinw

ICBM said:

martinw said:

ICBM said:

The problem is that a lot of people do think that the only good sounds come from valve amps, so convincing them that a solid-state amp can sound great while not sounding like a valve amp is hard.

Or maybe they're right, and prefer the sound and feel of valves?

I think it would be interesting to genuinely compare them in blind tests. There would be some where it was obvious, certainly - but others much less so... both ways round.

In my opinion there are a lot of valve amps that sound truly dreadful, and only really sell because people believe the valve hype. They sound nothing like the classic great valve amps, and in fact much further away from them than a decent solid-state amp can.

Fair points.

I'd like to see those tests too, it'd be interesting. Hype's a terrible thing, be it valve, Axe FX, Transtube, or any other. My preference for valve amps isn't hype-induced though.

Anyway, enough...

ROOG

Found this video on youtube! Bit long I'm afraid, and reminds me of my tine in British manufacturing in the  early 80's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDvF89Bh27Y&list=PL9A166E3085CED13E

"The Blackburn Story" at it's peak in 1961, employing thousands of workers and capable of making 500,000 valves a day, at the time of making the film the announcer proudly declares that the people of Blackburn and the factory were ready to meet the demands of the day and prepared for the future. Well I guess they got some of that right!  

I'm amazed that it was still running in 1984. 

I wonder if valve manufacture will eventually become a boutique 'arts and crafts' industry? 

ICBM

Valves were produced up to the 1980s because of the military - during the Cold War, it was known that valves were immune to the electromagnetic pulse from a nuclear explosion, whereas transistors tended to fry themselves unless very heavily shielded. Consequently most military equipment - particularly avionics, where the weight penalty of adequate shielding for solid-state electronics would have been too high - used valves, so our planes wouldn't fall out of the sky in the event of WWIII.

This is the reason that some of the most common NOS types still available are things like the military versions of the 12AT7, which was a standard operational gain stage valve in avionics and was stockpiled in vast numbers. There's also a miniaturised/ruggedised version with a very similar spec that was used in guided missiles - the stocks of them were sold off a few years back, and they're now used in the ZVex Nano Amp and the Duncan tube pedals, and some MarkBass amps.

My guess is that by the 80s, either tougher solid-state electronics were being developed, or there was a good idea in high military circles that the Cold War would probably not last much longer - so they didn't see the need to keep making valves. A really odd thing is in the last years when valve production was winding down, many of the valves the British military bought were actually made by RFT... in East Germany!

EricTheWeary

I can't agree either that the JC120 has a 'huge fan base'.

I couldn't begin to quote any figures but they still make Jazz Choruses ( Chorii? Chorus's?), there is an association with them with a quite a lot of classic tracks ( from Dire Straits to the Cult to the Bhundu Boys) and they are still popular for some genres. There is definitely a fan base out there, even if it is in Tokyo or Nairobi rather than Newcastle . Arguably the classic SS amp; although because it does what SS does well ( sparkly clean, I guess) maybe it represents both the best of but also the limit of what SS amps can achieve.  

 

ICBM

I'm pretty sure the JC-120 is the only solid-state amp that would be included in a Top Ten Greatest Amps. It may be less popular now than it was from the late 70s to the late 80s, but it still defines the clean sounds of that era, and by extension quite a lot of the music.

The difficulty now is that despite appearances there are really quite a lot of variations in them, and some sound much better than others.

ROOG

If I had the room I'd like to have a fling with a JC-120, but that applies to quite a few valve amps too!

 

Jalapeno

hywelg said:

 I really really wanted to try, first hand, the Retro Wreck that was talked about at length a couple of years ago on TGP and then went deathly silent. I'm not sure its even still being made. Shame....

Me too. He has some still for sale I think. DestroyAllGuitars don't seem to sell them anymore.


I think Lance has moved on - he's got his 2 channel power amp (with he claims the Retro Wreck built in).  Not sure if this is snake oil or not tbh.


He's also now selling a "tube" preamp ....

impmann

I've read this with great interest - thing is the valve snobs won't have it any other way. Valves sound best - according to them. 8-|

I've gigged an SS amp for years - and whilst I occasionally gas for something different, I keep coming back to it as my core tone (and its done everything from country to punk rock). Plus it has never gone wrong in literally 1000s of gigs, I can carry it comfortably and it doesn't need expensive parts replacing every so often... 

There have been some amazing tones recorded using SS amps - and I totally agree with ICBM that there are some truly awful sounding valve amps out there. The only thing that sells them is the glowing filaments and a whole heap of marketing BS. 

Digital - well, finally folks are being a bit more open minded to it. Although the nay-sayers will still pooh-pooh them as loudly as they possibly can (whilst probably throwing stones at the sun and crying "heretic" each time something with wheels passes them by). Fact remains that some *really* well known "tone hound" stuff on record was not played through glowing filaments... and you won't have noticed the difference. And if you look behind the BS in the magazines ("yeah we hired in a vintage 60s Strat and a load of vintage amps" etc )  you will find a VERY different true story.

A good tone is a good tone - it matters not a shit if it is powered by valves, by transistors or by egg fried rice. If it sounds good TO YOU, then its a good tone. Frankly (Mr Shankly) I couldn't give a toss how it happens, as long as it does. 

Jalapeno

How true !  Name that SS amp !

EricTheWeary

is that brown egg fried rice or white egg fried rice?

impmann

Oh Brown....everyone knows the husks have a better tone.

My amp?... A Sessionette 75. Hated by some, loved by others.

koneguitarist

impmann said:

I've read this with great interest - thing is the valve snobs won't have it any other way. Valves sound best - according to them. 8-|

I've gigged an SS amp for years - and whilst I occasionally gas for something different, I keep coming back to it as my core tone (and its done everything from country to punk rock). Plus it has never gone wrong in literally 1000s of gigs, I can carry it comfortably and it doesn't need expensive parts replacing every so often... 

There have been some amazing tones recorded using SS amps - and I totally agree with ICBM that there are some truly awful sounding valve amps out there. The only thing that sells them is the glowing filaments and a whole heap of marketing BS. 

Digital - well, finally folks are being a bit more open minded to it. Although the nay-sayers will still pooh-pooh them as loudly as they possibly can (whilst probably throwing stones at the sun and crying "heretic" each time something with wheels passes them by). Fact remains that some *really* well known "tone hound" stuff on record was not played through glowing filaments... and you won't have noticed the difference. And if you look behind the BS in the magazines ("yeah we hired in a vintage 60s Strat and a load of vintage amps" etc )  you will find a VERY different true story.

A good tone is a good tone - it matters not a shit if it is powered by valves, by transistors or by egg fried rice. If it sounds good TO YOU, then its a good tone. Frankly (Mr Shankly) I couldn't give a toss how it happens, as long as it does. 

 

 

Totally agree, I love Good valve amps, and have been lucky enough to have owned and played a lot of the classics. But I don`t think I have played a great valve amp built since the late 80`s that isn`t a boutique hand built job.  And if we are talking heavy distortion tones, I doubt I could tell which is which anyway. The last Valve amps that I have had are Blues Deluxe reissue, sterile, volume control all or nothing, Blackstar HT40 blandest of the bland, exactly what you think an SS amp sounds like, Marshall Haze 40, blew up totally unreliable, and a peavey Bandit which sounded warmer and more responsive than all of them.

I also recently had a TSL 100w head and cab, decent sounds, solid, versatile but nothing to really get you excited, and an Excelsior which for some reason suits the band and what I am doing, and seems to have a nice tone with my tele.

Point is all amps be it Valve, SS or Digital are different and have their own sounds, some of which are great and some that sound awfull, but that is my opinion, thankfully we all have different views regarding tone, and if a session 75 or JC120 is what floats your boat then its a good amp no matter how its made.

ICBM

The problem for me in all this is that there is one amp which in my opinion is head and shoulders better-sounding than anything else I've ever owned or even used... the Mesa Trem-o-verb. It's a modern (to me, anyway - the older of my two is almost 20 years old now though, so some people would probably call it vintage )), PCB-built, complex, high-powered, channel-switching, very expensive - not to mention heavy - valve amp, and in many ways I wish it wasn't so - but it just does sound better.

I am currently thinking of getting a set of these new solid-state valves to try in one of them .

martinw

 

Moltisanti

Pantera got to the very top of the Metal tree using only SS Randall amps, admittedly Dime's tone isn't winning any awards for it's warmth or beauty, but it got the job done and live their mix was crushing. Randy Rhoads managed the same feat with all valve Marshalls that mostly to my ears sounded like utter shit....

There's a lot of internet speak about valves these days that mean people who've never actually played a valve amp at a volume where you can hear the difference are buying them in their thousands because "it has to be valve". I gigged with a Valvestate head and cab back in the early 90s and it sounded great...