The effect of a Floyd Rose on tone?

jaymenon

I always thought that Floyd Rose tremolos make a guitar sound thin and tinny, sucking out mid range - and so you need mid-heavy overwound pickups to compensate for this...

Interestingly here - the guitar with the Floyd Rose has lost its treble rather than its mid range...

ICBM

You can't tell what either of them would have sounded like with the other bridge...

You can only make generalised judgements about what different types of construction and hardware sound like when you compare a *lot* of different guitars with the same parts.

A Floyd will unquestionably sound different from a Strat-type bridge, and both will sound very different from a stopbar/tune-o-matic - but guitars themselves can sound different to that sort of degree as well, even of the same model.

The Ibanez RG550 I had recently was a very full-sounding, resonant guitar - nothing lacking in midrange or treble (or bass!) with the Floyd at all.

skullfunkerry

Like ICBM's RG, my Soloist is very resonant, sustains for days and isn't lacking any treble or midrange... the Schecter I had until Christmas was the same, but even more so, and very loud acoustically; that might have been to do with the fact that it had a scratchplate though maybe?

carlos

jaymenon said:

I always thought that Floyd Rose tremolos make a guitar sound thin and tinny, sucking out mid range - and so you need mid-heavy overwound pickups to compensate for this...

Interestingly here - the guitar with the Floyd Rose has lost its treble rather than its mid range...

A lot of the shred guitar sound with Floyds was recorded with low to mid output humbuckers. The Dimarzio Paf Pro that Vai used for a long time is if anything treble-y.

Richardrichard

I don’t believe any of this mumbo jumbo, some of the best tones of all time were achieved with a Floyd. If you think it lacks mid range listen to VH I

Sassafras

It also depends on how the strap locks interact with the Floyd Rose.

Strangefan

Because it wasn't made in the 50s or designed by some elderly man in a white wood working apron whittling it by hand most guitarists will always see a floyd as an abomination.
Even though set up well they are fantastic things.... Its a good job the younger generation of players love them and also prefer far Eastern guitars to usa made.
I went to a battle of the bands not too long ago and not one of the bands were rocking usa made it was all ibanez ltds schecter etc. ..... This makes me happy as change is a foot. 

ICBM

Richardrichard said:

I don’t believe any of this mumbo jumbo, some of the best tones of all time were achieved with a Floyd. If you think it lacks mid range listen to VH I

VH1 wasn't done with a Floyd.

jaymenon

ICBM said:

Richardrichard said:

I don’t believe any of this mumbo jumbo, some of the best tones of all time were achieved with a Floyd. If you think it lacks mid range listen to VH I

VH1 wasn't done with a Floyd.

ICBM is correct

timmypix

Having had two identical guitars at the same time, one with a stoptail and one with a Floyd, the FR-equipped guitar always sounded "deader". Could've been the guitar regardless, but I always blamed the FR. I've since acquired another stoptail one and it's as perfect as the first one was.

CaseOfAce

Malmsteen seems to reckon they kill the sound - and he knows something about tone...
but then again there's other top notch players who get killer tones using instruments with 'em on..!

Me? I loathe the things. It's a solution to a problem that never existed for me.
I can see if you're Brad Gillis doing weird and wonderful dips or a Van Halen style player making elephant noises they are useful - but string changing is more time consuming I find and the other night my A string went way out of tune mid first set... something that could not be rectified by a fine tuner adjustment - so I had to swap guitars.
(I should have had a fresh set of strings on in the first place after a long NYE gig earlier in the month).

If I'd have had a non-floyd I could have tuned up in 10 seconds with a normal tuning peg. 

digitalscream

CaseOfAce said:

Malmsteen seems to reckon they kill the sound - and he knows something about tone...
but then again there's other top notch players who get killer tones using instruments with 'em on..!

Me? I loathe the things. It's a solution to a problem that never existed for me.
I can see if you're Brad Gillis doing weird and wonderful dips or a Van Halen style player making elephant noises they are useful - but string changing is more time consuming I find and the other night my A string went way out of tune mid first set... something that could not be rectified by a fine tuner adjustment - so I had to swap guitars.
(I should have had a fresh set of strings on in the first place after a long NYE gig earlier in the month).

If I'd have had a non-floyd I could have tuned up in 10 seconds with a normal tuning peg. 

My current main guitar has a blocked Floyd. The tuning is significantly more stable than any of my hardtail guitars.

andy_k

We have had many similar discussions on here about similar issues with various types of vibrato units, and the idiosyncrasies of setting them up.
The elephant in the room about evaluating these things, is that no 2 instruments are similar enough to be able to have an accurate comparison. The OP's video is a good example really, but Johan at least always tries to get close.
'Tone' is a particularly vague descriptor anyway, what do we mean here?
Is it 'lack of resonance', or 'difference of EQ' ? or something we can't put our finger on?
A Floyd Rose, when set up correctly, is a truly wonderful thing, allowing many new techniques that would otherwise be impossible to achieve.
They can be frustrating things to actually get set up correctly, as there are many inferior models around which look the part, but aren't really up to the job.
A large part of the idea that they 'suck tone' and sound 'thin' must be down to the amount of wood that has to be removed, and we are relying on 2 tiny knife edges to transfer vibration, as opposed to the entire body when we compare a floating trem to a decked one, or a hardtail.
The only way to achieve some sort of accurate comparison, would be to take a hardtail guitar, and take some recordings, and then to have the body and neck routed to take a FR, and compare. Even then, strings would be a variable, and the experiment, although interesting, would be useless really - what if the FR was an inferior tone in that example? we would have no way of reversing the modifications.
Using the FR as a 'decked' device, helps to overcome some of the deficiencies, but this too has some drawbacks.
The knife edges can wear over time, depending on use, and by allowing some upward pull, ie floating, the tuning can be stabilised by a small tug after a divebomb, this can't be done if the trem is decked, so it is useful to understand this when deciding how to set it up initially.
If a string breaks on a floating set up, tuning is lost, a decked trem avoids this.
Unison bends work differently between the 2 set ups.
A lot of the tuning stability depends on the stiffness of the neck, and the effects of temp and humidity.
The EVH Wolfgang design addresses most of these points, and they have been hugely successful instruments, although the quality can be compromised on some of the cheaper models.

carlos

timmypix said:

Having had two identical guitars at the same time, one with a stoptail and one with a Floyd, the FR-equipped guitar always sounded "deader". Could've been the guitar regardless, but I always blamed the FR. I've since acquired another stoptail one and it's as perfect as the first one was.

Could it be all of your signal processing after the guitar (fx, amps) was set up for the hardtail, and thus it wouldn't work for the FR one? I know some of my Helix presets will sound amazing with a single coil guitar, and then I switch to one with high output humbuckers and it sounds terrible, vice-versa for other presets I created.

timmypix

carlos said:

timmypix said:

Having had two identical guitars at the same time, one with a stoptail and one with a Floyd, the FR-equipped guitar always sounded "deader". Could've been the guitar regardless, but I always blamed the FR. I've since acquired another stoptail one and it's as perfect as the first one was.

Could it be all of your signal processing after the guitar (fx, amps) was set up for the hardtail, and thus it wouldn't work for the FR one? I know some of my Helix presets will sound amazing with a single coil guitar, and then I switch to one with high output humbuckers and it sounds terrible, vice-versa for other presets I created.

I don't think so - they were identical electronically and plugged in you couldn't tell much of a difference, but unplugged the FR model had less life to it. Less resonant, less presence/high end, less sustain. Just less inspiring to play and I'd always pick up its stoptail sibling and think "ah, that's better!". 

But the metulz called for silly whammy bar squeals and I couldn't fault the tuning stability at all, to be fair to it. Just before it was stolen I'd basically stripped the rear claw screw, which was getting frustrating, and I can't say I miss it.

skullfunkerry

timmypix said:

carlos said:

timmypix said:

Having had two identical guitars at the same time, one with a stoptail and one with a Floyd, the FR-equipped guitar always sounded "deader". Could've been the guitar regardless, but I always blamed the FR. I've since acquired another stoptail one and it's as perfect as the first one was.

Could it be all of your signal processing after the guitar (fx, amps) was set up for the hardtail, and thus it wouldn't work for the FR one? I know some of my Helix presets will sound amazing with a single coil guitar, and then I switch to one with high output humbuckers and it sounds terrible, vice-versa for other presets I created.

I don't think so - they were identical electronically and plugged in you couldn't tell much of a difference, but unplugged the FR model had less life to it. Less resonant, less presence/high end, less sustain. Just less inspiring to play and I'd always pick up its stoptail sibling and think "ah, that's better!". 

But the metulz called for silly whammy bar squeals and I couldn't fault the tuning stability at all, to be fair to it. Just before it was stolen I'd basically stripped the rear claw screw, which was getting frustrating, and I can't say I miss it.

I haven’t tried one yet but the Fat Cat steel blocks that Jonathan at @FelineGuitars sells apparently do a good job of bringing those missing frequencies back.

ICBM

timmypix said:

I don't think so - they were identical electronically and plugged in you couldn't tell much of a difference, but unplugged the FR model had less life to it. Less resonant, less presence/high end, less sustain. Just less inspiring to play and I'd always pick up its stoptail sibling and think "ah, that's better!".

Yes, they do definitely sound different. The real problem is deciding whether it's due to the trem or the particular guitar - it's possible that the same guitar would have sounded deader even with a stoptail, or it could be the trem...

Although not the same type of bridge, I've owned and played quite a lot of PRSs, and the ones with the stoptails have always sounded deader and less vibrant to me - but I know a lot of people prefer them and think the opposite.

Philly_Q

ICBM said:

Although not the same type of bridge, I've owned and played quite a lot of PRSs, and the ones with the stoptails have always sounded deader and less vibrant to me - but I know a lot of people prefer them and think the opposite.

Interesting.  I've owned a lot of PRS guitars but only a few have had the tremolo system, so not really a big enough sample to draw conclusions... but the PRS I liked the least, and which sounded quite dead/dull and uninspiring to me, was a Singlecut Trem (it was also the most expensive PRS I've owned, Artist Pack and everything).

Having said that, athough I'm not a tremolo fan I do like the PRS trem more than most, it has a nice feel to it.  And I have an old SE EG which has been dismantled for years, but that has the SE version of the trem and as I recall it felt and sounded fine.

daveyh

I had my first FR in about 1986/7, it was on a Kramer Baretta and have had many Floyd style guitars over the years. I can’t say I’ve ever felt there was anything lacking in the sound of the guitars I’ve chosen. I also don’t hold with the idea of a FR being particularly difficult to set up or change strings, you just have to understand them and make allowances for them, including the problem of snapping a string.