Strat wiring help

demby236

I have a pre-wired harness & 2 .022 caps from Six String Supplies. I want to test out some other configurations and since I'm using Radioshop Black One pickups, the first thing I want to try is the following:

Masterbuilt Blk1 dual cap config. with Neck + Middle on tone 1 and bridge on tone 2.

As seen here:



Since I like to retain some high end when rolling off the volume, I also want to use Gibson style 50s wiring. (much prefer this to a treble bleed.)

I can find wiring diagrams for these options separately but not combined and due to my primitive understanding of wiring guitars, I would be extremely grateful if someone would very kindly help me out with step-by-step written instructions to convert to this wiring scheme. Here's how it is currently (standard strat wiring but with tone 2 controlling middle + bridge):



There is a single piece of wire soldered across all 3 pots for grounding.

Cheers,
Matt

Funkfingers

Requested tone control mod.,
1) On the selector switch, detach the black insulated wire that connects to the lower tone pot.
2) Solder in a short jumper connection between the terminal that you have just freed up and the one with the black insulated wire that connects to the upper tone pot.
3) Solder the loose black insulated wire to the (currently) unused terminal on that side of the selector switch.

I detest Stratocaster tone controls connected up this way. I want to be able to flip between neck pickup with treble rolled off to bridge or bridge + middle with the tone control at 10. I would even prefer a master tone to the circuit on many recent Fenders.

Take no notice. Do what thou wouldst. 

Fifties wiring is just the order in which the signal enters and leaves the volume pot(s). It is only of any great significance on guitars with individual volume pots for each pickup. 

If you make this change on a regular Stratocaster, it negates any benefit that a treble bypass mod could offer.

Dave_Mc

^ @Funkfingers ;;;I think he just prefers 50s wiring to a treble bleed. I think you can do it with a Strat layout (@ICBM told me you could), but it's a bit more involved and I'm not sure how to!  

And LOL, I'm the opposite to you about the tone controls... I like it with one on the bridge pickup (so I can roll it off a little) and the other one for the neck and middle since I usually use them up full!

demby236

Wow, thank you very much for that detailed response, very helpful!

 I'm the opposite aha - I almost always use the neck and middle with the tone wide open and almost always use the bridge rolled off so I like to switch between the two.

With regards to the 50s wiring - I've seen several companies offering looms wired this way and Simon Law of SVL has said that he wires Matt Schofield's strats this way which is why I'm interested in trying it. I've attempted a diagram of my own below, would this be correct?




Cheers!

ICBM

The problem with separate tone caps in that configuration is that both are engaged when bridge and middle are selected, making that setting dull compared to the others. Even with separate controls and a common cap it’s noticeable. Given two tone caps, and wanting one for the neck/middle and one for the bridge, I would connect one to the neck/middle tone pot as normal, and the other replacing the link wire between the tone pots - that will put the two caps in series and effectively reduce the tone cap value for the bridge pickup. In theory you need .047uF caps for this to give the ‘correct’ values, but it will work with .022s as well.

50s wiring is simple, it’s exactly the same as normal except that the tone control side of the switch needs to be connected to the volume control output (centre terminal) and not jumpered across to the pickup side of the switch.

demby236

ICBM said:

The problem with separate tone caps in that configuration is that both are engaged when bridge and middle are selected, making that setting dull compared to the others. Even with separate controls and a common cap it’s noticeable. Given two tone caps, and wanting one for the neck/middle and one for the bridge, I would connect one to the neck/middle tone pot as normal, and the other replacing the link wire between the tone pots - that will put the two caps in series and effectively reduce the tone cap value for the bridge pickup. In theory you need .047uF caps for this to give the ‘correct’ values, but it will work with .022s as well.

50s wiring is simple, it’s exactly the same as normal except that the tone control side of the switch needs to be connected to the volume control output (centre terminal) and not jumpered across to the pickup side of the switch.

Would this dullness still be an issue with both tones wide open / middle wide open and bridge slightly rolled off?

Cheers!

demby236

Dave_Mc said:

^ @Funkfingers ;;;I think he just prefers 50s wiring to a treble bleed. I think you can do it with a Strat layout (@ICBM told me you could), but it's a bit more involved and I'm not sure how to!  

And LOL, I'm the opposite to you about the tone controls... I like it with one on the bridge pickup (so I can roll it off a little) and the other one for the neck and middle since I usually use them up full!

Yes, this is what I meant, sorry for the confusion. That's exactly how I use my tone controls!

ICBM

demby236 said:

Would this dullness still be an issue with both tones wide open / middle wide open and bridge slightly rolled off?

Yes, because the total load is .044uF/125K - even if subtly, it will inevitably be slightly duller than .022uF/250K even with the controls up full. This is why I don't like having a bridge tone and a neck/middle tone, unless you're using a superswitch so you can purposely select only one tone in the bridge/middle position.

The series tone controls method will help - on your diagram above, undo the ground end of the cap on the bridge tone control, and connect that end of the cap to the hot end of the cap on the other tone control (terminal 3). That will give you .011uF/250K in the bridge alone (perfect for just knocking it back slightly), and .022uF/250K in the other four positions.

demby236

ICBM said:

demby236 said:

Would this dullness still be an issue with both tones wide open / middle wide open and bridge slightly rolled off?

Yes, because the total load is .044uF/125K - even if subtly, it will inevitably be slightly duller than .022uF/250K even with the controls up full. This is why I don't like having a bridge tone and a neck/middle tone, unless you're using a superswitch so you can purposely select only one tone in the bridge/middle position.

The series tone controls method will help - on your diagram above, undo the ground end of the cap on the bridge tone control, and connect that end of the cap to the hot end of the cap on the other tone control (terminal 3). That will give you .011uF/250K in the bridge alone (perfect for just knocking it back slightly), and .022uF/250K in the other four positions.

Thank you! That will actually work out quite nicely cause I won't lose as much mid range on the bridge which is kinda why I wanted the 2 caps in the first place - it makes it fairly easy to try out some lower value caps on just the bridge, but your suggested wiring will solve that. Cheers, really appreciate your help!

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

(a) The problem with separate tone caps in that configuration is that both are engaged when bridge and middle are selected, making that setting dull compared to the others. Even with separate controls and a common cap it’s noticeable. Given two tone caps, and wanting one for the neck/middle and one for the bridge, I would connect one to the neck/middle tone pot as normal, and the other replacing the link wire between the tone pots - that will put the two caps in series and effectively reduce the tone cap value for the bridge pickup. In theory you need .047uF caps for this to give the ‘correct’ values, but it will work with .022s as well.

(b) 50s wiring is simple, it’s exactly the same as normal except that the tone control side of the switch needs to be connected to the volume control output (centre terminal) and not jumpered across to the pickup side of the switch.

(a) Cack I think I've done that with my two Strats

Let's take bets on whether I can hear it's too dull now I've been told it should be. It sounded fine before...

EDIT: Ah I've just had a thought. It might not be too dull with 0.022, right? (I prefer .047 usually) I think I have .022s in one guitar, and them on a push-push in the other. So it might be ok. (Granted, it still might be relatively too dull compared to the cap alone in the other settings...)

(b) Not for me it's not!  (But seriously, I understand now what you mean )

ICBM

Dave_Mc said:

EDIT: Ah I've just had a thought. It might not be too dull with 0.022, right? (I prefer .047 usually) I think I have .022s in one guitar, and them on a push-push in the other. So it might be ok. (Granted, it still might be relatively too dull compared to the cap alone in the other settings…

It will still be a bit dull because you have the two tone pots in parallel, giving 125K even when both are full up - like turning one down to about 8.

The great thing about either original or modern Fender wiring is that it puts this in the neck/middle position, so that ends up inherently softer than the bridge/middle.

Series wiring the tone pots fixes this too, by avoiding the parallel load in the bridge/middle position. It does mean the effective cap value for the bridge is lower, but that’s almost always what you want anyway, whether the bridge pickup is S or H.


(I have an even more complex scheme I like, which is to have the standard tone arrangement, but use .1uF for the neck, another .1uF in series for the middle, and a .047uF in series again - replacing the link wire on the switch - for the bridge, giving .1uF, .05uF, and .022uF for the neck, middle and bridge respectively.)

Funkfingers

ICBM said:

I have an even more complex scheme I like

Is it as complex as a fox what used to be Professor of Complexity at Oxford University but has moved on? 

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

Dave_Mc said:

EDIT: Ah I've just had a thought. It might not be too dull with 0.022, right? (I prefer .047 usually) I think I have .022s in one guitar, and them on a push-push in the other. So it might be ok. (Granted, it still might be relatively too dull compared to the cap alone in the other settings…

It will still be a bit dull because you have the two tone pots in parallel, giving 125K even when both are full up - like turning one down to about 8.

The great thing about either original or modern Fender wiring is that it puts this in the neck/middle position, so that ends up inherently softer than the bridge/middle.

Series wiring the tone pots fixes this too, by avoiding the parallel load in the bridge/middle position. It does mean the effective cap value for the bridge is lower, but that’s almost always what you want anyway, whether the bridge pickup is S or H.


(I have an even more complex scheme I like, which is to have the standard tone arrangement, but use .1uF for the neck, another .1uF in series for the middle, and a .047uF in series again - replacing the link wire on the switch - for the bridge, giving .1uF, .05uF, and .022uF for the neck, middle and bridge respectively.)

So I had a listen and I think I can hear it ("I *am* the suggestible type!"). Just to check, with one tone pot for the bridge pickup, and another one for the middle and neck (i.e. one master tone pot for those two pickups), it should only be the bridge + middle setting which is a little too dull, right?

It's pretty subtle, I'm not sure I can be bothered changing the wiring- both the guitars have push-push pots so it's a bit of a pain to get at. The other thing I'm thinking is- with the standard Strat tone pot wiring, I usually (from memory) found the neck + middle setting too soft... I actually prefer it now the way I have it wired I think! (Unfortunately with standard wiring I probably preferred bridge + middle, which admittedly I think now sounds worse... I think a master tone actually might be the best!)

That complex scheme you have sounds good, though I wonder if I might prefer it the other way? I seem to prefer a lower cap for the neck pickup (when I bother, usually I just use the same value).

Funkfingers said:

ICBM said:

I have an even more complex scheme I like

Is it as complex as a fox what used to be Professor of Complexity at Oxford University but has moved on? 

  

ICBM

Dave_Mc said:

So I had a listen and I think I can hear it ("I *am* the suggestible type!"). Just to check, with one tone pot for the bridge pickup, and another one for the middle and neck (i.e. one master tone pot for those two pickups), it should only be the bridge + middle setting which is a little too dull, right?

Yes.

Dave_Mc said:

The other thing I'm thinking is- with the standard Strat tone pot wiring, I usually (from memory) found the neck + middle setting too soft... I actually prefer it now the way I have it wired I think! (Unfortunately with standard wiring I probably preferred bridge + middle, which admittedly I think now sounds worse... I think a master tone actually might be the best!)

The reason I prefer neck/middle to be the 'softer' one is that otherwise, the two in-between sounds are too similar to each other. However, some people (like Eric Johnson apparently) prefer that.

Overall I do prefer a master tone though, not least because it allows the volume control to be in a not-ridiculously-annoying place .

Dave_Mc said:

That complex scheme you have sounds good, though I wonder if I might prefer it the other way? I seem to prefer a lower cap for the neck pickup (when I bother, usually I just use the same value).

I very much like bigger caps for the neck pickup, I like that super-deep sound that everyone seems to be trying not to have now, with smaller cap values. It doesn't work so well on the bridge, it just takes away too much volume.

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

Dave_Mc said:

So I had a listen and I think I can hear it ("I *am* the suggestible type!"). Just to check, with one tone pot for the bridge pickup, and another one for the middle and neck (i.e. one master tone pot for those two pickups), it should only be the bridge + middle setting which is a little too dull, right?

Yes.

Dave_Mc said:

The other thing I'm thinking is- with the standard Strat tone pot wiring, I usually (from memory) found the neck + middle setting too soft... I actually prefer it now the way I have it wired I think! (Unfortunately with standard wiring I probably preferred bridge + middle, which admittedly I think now sounds worse... I think a master tone actually might be the best!)

The reason I prefer neck/middle to be the 'softer' one is that otherwise, the two in-between sounds are too similar to each other. However, some people (like Eric Johnson apparently) prefer that.

Overall I do prefer a master tone though, not least because it allows the volume control to be in a not-ridiculously-annoying place .

Dave_Mc said:

That complex scheme you have sounds good, though I wonder if I might prefer it the other way? I seem to prefer a lower cap for the neck pickup (when I bother, usually I just use the same value).

I very much like bigger caps for the neck pickup, I like that super-deep sound that everyone seems to be trying not to have now, with smaller cap values. It doesn't work so well on the bridge, it just takes away too much volume.

Thanks Had another think about it, and I'm just remembering that my USA Deluxe Strat has a no-load tone which I use for the bridge pickup alone- I'm guessing that would mean that the bridge + middle (when the bridge tone knob is up full) setting should sound pretty much as normal, at least compared to a vintage Strat with no tone knob on the bridge pickup? 

If so, that's another reason to try to convert the Tokai to a no-load tone knob... bit of a pain when it's a push-push, lol. I haven't managed to successfully open even a standard pot...

Regarding the other stuff- I know what you mean about the two settings sounding too similar. My problem is just that if the neck + middle is too soft-sounding that it's kind of unusable for me anyway! I'd rather have two subtly different settings which I can still use. 

The Strat volume knob never really seems to annoy me. I can understand why it could, though, it's definitely very close!

I must actually try a bigger cap, just to see. I think the biggest I've tried is 47nF. I like both sounds (22nF and 47nF) for certain things... it makes the wiring more of a pain, but having the two options can be handy.