I want to chat amp similarities when going through the same speakers...

Drew_TNBD

So one thing I'm finding with the Axe FX. With the same IR or real world cab, a lot of the high-gain models sound the same. I know that there is a general thought that speakers are more important than the amp towards the final tone in a lot of cases.

But this isn't really something I've picked up on that much with real amp heads - the Laney Ironheart, VH100R, the 5153, the Marshall JVM Satriani, the Diezel D-Moll, The Fryette Sig X, and the Orange Rockerverb. They all sound fairly different through the exact same cab and speakers to me. Of course I am judging on a combination of actual real world comparisons I've done (5153 versus JVM) and my memory of what some of these amps sounded like, given I don't own them anymore - for instance, the Sig X had this absolutely monstrous low-end that sounded almost like a bass amp, whereas the JVM had quite a fuzzy low-end that was not as refined. The Orange Rockerverb sounds quite dark and 'Big Muffy' when cranked hard, whereas the 5153 sounds tight all the way through it's gain stages.

Again, through the same cab+speakers; in most cases this was my ENGL 2x12 with V30's. Which is also the same cab I am using with the Axe FX.

Axe FX going into the return of my Diezel D-Moll.

So my question really is this - are high-gain sounds from modellers more susceptible to this than real amp heads, or am I just imagining it?

guitarfishbay

It might have something to do with audio memory?  From what I understand, how we remember sound isn't very good.

Unless you're able to A/B very quickly and at a matched volume you aren't going to get a fair comparison.

Maybe going through some amp shootouts from the Sneap board might be useful, the ones where the mic position doesn't change etc.

Also - your Diezel power amp will be colouring the sound to some extent, all you're actually changing is the pre-amp in your case, not the whole amp, which is what you'd be doing when changing heads.

Also - were you using flat EQ/gain etc with each amp head?  I'd imagine you set each to your preferred settings for that amp when using the real thing.  Are you doing the same with the Axe?

Drew_TNBD

Hmm, with the Axe just using the default values except for the output volume and the gain amount. It's not like they all sound 100% exactly the same, but the character is closer than the real amps. I have a feeling the power-section issue is a large part of it.

guitarfishbay

I would too.

Have you ever done Franken-amping in the real world?

I tried it and thought it wasn't worth it, but, putting my Dual Rec through my Blackstar S1 power section basically removed a fair bit of bass and putting the S1 through the Dual Rec power section gave it a much bigger sound than through its own power amp.

I don't know how to design a valve power amp, but I'd guess it involves more variables than just some tubes. 

guitarfishbay

Just a PSA related to my above post (please nobody blow up their amps).  Drew will know this but some might not...

A tube amp needs a load, so to try Franken amping you need a load for each head (dummy, or speaker)

The method is -

Guitar -> amp 1 (Preamp) -> FX Send to amp 2 FX return (power amp) -> speaker cab

Unless you can run your amp 1 in standby without a load (like some Blackstars) it will need to be connected to a speaker of its own, or a loadbox.

ICBM

I would guess it's a bit of both. The power amp of the Diezel will stamp its own signature on the preamp signal it gets, and it also won't respond differently to the speakers (even the same speakers) as different power amps do.

I would guess - given that you like tight sounds, and that's what I've heard in the Diezel I've played - that this amp has a lot of negative feedback, so it will be more of the former with this one; when you use looser amps with less NFB the speaker gets more of a say in the result.

Similarly for guitarfishbay's observation - the Blackstar almost certainly has a lot more NFB than the Rectifier, even with the Rec in a mode other than Modern. (In Modern it has none!)

NFB is not the only variable in power amp character and sensitivity to preamps and speakers either.

Drew_TNBD

Seems reasonable to assume this wouldn't be any different with a rackmount valve poweramp then... so you're always going to be imparting some character upon your digital preamp, which will necessarily take away or obscure the differences within the preamps. A 5150 style preamp shouldn't really sound so close to a Marshall style imho. But it's what I'm observing. Same general character... not a bad character at all, but the differences seem to be marginal.

Although this is even true when going direct to my DAW, to some extent. But then IR's are capture with specific poweramps, so you're always going to be facing it.

ICBM

The only way to really avoid it is to use power amp modelling, a power amp - almost certainly solid-state - designed for as uncoloured a response as possible, and the most neutral speakers you can get.

In other words as close to FRFR as you can get without actually adding a tweeter and a bass port and then using software to negate their presence .

Solid state is going to be better because solid-state power amps inherently have much higher damping factors than can normally be achieved with valves. (equivalent to more NFB and lower output impedance, so the speaker is overruled more strongly.)

guitarfishbay

Drew_fx said:

Seems reasonable to assume this wouldn't be any different with a rackmount valve poweramp then... so you're always going to be imparting some character upon your digital preamp, which will necessarily take away or obscure the differences within the preamps. A 5150 style preamp shouldn't really sound so close to a Marshall style imho. But it's what I'm observing. Same general character... not a bad character at all, but the differences seem to be marginal.

I guess if you went down that route you'd be best off getting a valve poweramp you know you like the character of.  Ultimately when playing live you aren't really going to need to change the tone drastically, if anything having a 'family' sound will keep things more consistent.

Just as an observation here - surely less choice is a good thing, for you?

I didn't really think your previous demos sounded the same when you posted them, I could clearly tell the difference.  But how much difference are you expecting with the knobs set at noon?  Surely when you tweak the amps to sound their best they either wind up sounding different - or they wind up sounding similar because you dial them in to a very clear vision of what you want from a tone?

Drew_TNBD

guitarfishbay said:

I guess if you went down that route you'd be best off getting a valve poweramp you know you like the character of.  Ultimately when playing live you aren't really going to need to change the tone drastically, if anything having a 'family' sound will keep things more consistent.

Yeah you raise a good point. Are you feeling like your experience with your Axe through the matrix has been different to what I report?

Just as an observation here - surely less choice is a good thing, for you?

Yeah somewhat. But kid-in-a-candy-store syndrome kicks in!

I didn't really think your previous demos sounded the same when you posted them, I could clearly tell the difference.  But how much difference are you expecting with the knobs set at noon?  Surely when you tweak the amps to sound their best they either wind up sounding different - or they wind up sounding similar because you dial them in to a very clear vision of what you want from a tone?

Do you mean Axe demos or real amp demos? If real amp I think those differences were more about microphone placement, levels, EQ, etc.. etc.. if Axe demos, I probably wasn't using the same IR's each time so it's not exactly a fair comparison.

guitarfishbay

Drew_fx said:

guitarfishbay said:

I guess if you went down that route you'd be best off getting a valve poweramp you know you like the character of.  Ultimately when playing live you aren't really going to need to change the tone drastically, if anything having a 'family' sound will keep things more consistent.

Yeah you raise a good point. Are you feeling like your experience with your Axe through the matrix has been different to what I report?

Well that blows my whole 'guess the NAD' post, you bellend.  )

It isn't as if I was really making any progress on it anyway.

I can definitely tell the difference between amps, I'm not sure how much difference you're expecting but I can definitely tell.  I don't agree that all of the standard settings (especially presence, resonance etc) are appropriate, but that might be my tastes and my cab.

I also find the bright cap a real PITA in some respects.  The interaction between actual volume (real poweramp volume, not modelled) is essentially broken - on a real amp if you turn it up the bright cap phases out, but if you turn up your Matrix the bright cap stays the same.  So you can't just turn leave it on and turn the power amp volume up/down - you still need to make patches appropriate for the intended usage.

I'm finding the speaker tab to be really important, actually.  With the Matrix you have to tell the Axe poweramp model how to 'interact' with the speaker cab, whereas by my understanding a valve amp just 'does' it.  With the wrong speaker tab settings there is either not enough thump, or way too much.  I think I'm using 90hz, slightly less value but a slightly wider Q.  It was giving me a good low end punch last night.  I just use Recto 1 Orange Normal IIRC, I did a test with Recto 1, Recto 2 (Orange Vintage) and 5153 Red and Blue - the band and I picked Recto 1 Orange as the best fit for us...  5153 Blue wasn't ballsy enough and 5153 Red wasn't cleaning up properly with a volume pedal.

I haven't played with the other advanced power amp options much yet - I kind of threw myself in at the deep end so had to get something working quickly.  I'll hopefully get more time to really dial things in and A/B at a later date.

Suffice to say, I'm happy so far.  I still want a second 2x12 cab, but mostly so I can hear myself more easily.  As I've said in other posts, two 2x12 cabs is easier with my car than one 4x12, and no I'm not changing my car for a guitar rig even though the thought did occur.  I actually prefer the tone of my Recto 2x12 to most 4x12s I've heard too, so win win for me either way...

Drew_fx said:

Just as an observation here - surely less choice is a good thing, for you?

Yeah somewhat. But kid-in-a-candy-store syndrome kicks in!

I get what you mean.  I guess I've come to the conclusion that while there are hundreds of possibilities - I probably only need a few at any one time.  I've hardly scratched the surface but I've scratched enough to get me back up to speed.

Drew_fx said:

Do you mean Axe demos or real amp demos? If real amp I think those differences were more about microphone placement, levels, EQ, etc.. etc.. if Axe demos, I probably wasn't using the same IR's each time so it's not exactly a fair comparison.

Axe demos - but even so, does it matter?  Could you really get the same results with a real amp/cab?

One thing I want to investigate at some point soon is creating my own IRs.  I've kept my mics and watched the tutorials, it doesn't look to hard.  That way I can keep working 'as normal', but I only need to be loud for a short period of time, since I can then switch to using the IR instead of the mic.  But what is cool is I could shoot multiple IRs, and then A/B how they're working 'in the mix' - e.g. try one with a 57, one with an i5 etc...

Drew_TNBD

guitarfishbay;346320" said:

Well that blows my whole 'guess the NAD' post, you bellend.  )

It isn't as if I was really making any progress on it anyway.

) ) ) )

Oh fuck... sorry dude....

guitarfishbay

I've had a rehearsal every 2-3 days recently so I've not bothered unpacking in between sessions, just been practising and writing on my acoustic.  I've not really had the chance to record my NAD demo.  Ok, I've been lazy.  

Dave_Mc

Not sure. I haven't tried an axe fx. I know with real amps if you use the same speakers they definitely sound closer, sometimes disconcertingly so ("cack did i need to buy that?"). Identical, though? I don't think so. Assuming you're not comparing very similar amps, of course (like two slightly different hot-rodded marshall type amps).

guitarfishbay

Just a thought - Ola Englund's youtube channel might give you a baseline idea. So many of the 'tight' amps sound really similar each time IMO especially in his early demos which are the same Mesa 2x12 and SM57. I think he's been using different cabs lately, but he definitely has a play list of high gain amps where a lot of the time the cab and mic were the same.