How to fix or improve Telecaster Thinline noise/buzzing?

nonesuch

I have a Fender 69 Telecaster Thinline MIM that has a bit of a noise/buzz problem. (The kind of buzz that goes away when you touch the strings.) I know that’s normal to some extent, but this guitar is much noisier than any of my others. 

I’m looking for a bit of advice and guidance on how to improve this.

I’ve bought some Oil City ‘Thames Delta’ pickups that I’m going to fit, however I’d like to deal with any noise issues first.

The first thing I have tried is to twist the two wires together going to the output jack, and also from the neck pickup. Unfortunately this made no noticeable difference. At the moment the volume and tone pots are both rated 1 Meg - am I right in thinking this could cause more buzz? Just because of more of the high frequencies coming through?

So basically I want to change the wiring and pots and cap, and then possibly add some copper foil shielding if that doesn’t improve things.

So this is a list of what I think I need:

1. Volume pot 250K audio taper CTS

2. Tone pot 250K audio taper CTS

3. Cap 0.022uF (I don’t want to take too much treble away, so is this better than 0.047uF?)

4. Possibly use shielded cable to output jack. (I’m not totally sure what kind of cable I need for this)

5. Possibly shield cavities with copper foil. (Should I only shield the control cavity, neck pickup cavity, but NOT the bridge pickup cavity?)

6. Possibly fit an Electrosocket

Does that all sound about right? Any help would be gratefully received, and I’ll post the results here…

Teyeplayer

I’ve just noticed a similar issue with a thinline I’ve recently picked up. The first thing I’ll be checking is that the bridge is earthed and there is a clean connection on the earth wire. Next step will be faraday style copper foil. The rest that you’ve mentioned is all personal choice and not essential.

nonesuch

Am I not right in thinking that if the buzz goes away when you touch the strings, that means that it is earthed properly?

Teyeplayer

We need @ICBM to clarify, but I’d always understood it to be you becoming the earth if it stopped the buzz.

ICBM

If you touch the strings and the noise stops then the bridge is correctly grounded.

The issue will be lack of shielding - most Fenders, especially vintage reissues, are very poorly/almost-non-existently shielded, and don't even have the simplest of measures (twisting the pickup and jack wire pairs) to reduce noise.

Replacing the wires from the jack to the volume pot with shielded cable will make a noticeable difference and will not affect the tone at all. Any shielded cable will do, but braided is best. (If you use bare-outer braided like Gibson, you'll need to sleeve the section in the control cavity to stop it shorting against the pot terminals.)

Replacing the wires to the pickups - especially the neck - with shielded will also make a big difference but may affect the tone very slightly. Shielding all the cavities with foil will make a very big difference and shouldn't noticeably affect the tone, but is much more work.

1M pots are noisier than 250Ks if the shielding is poor, but there's not much difference if it's good.

Personally I would keep the .047uF cap, I think it sounds better than .022uF with Fender-style guitars. It doesn't take away more treble, but more upper mids. .022 sounds too middy when turned down, to me - but some people prefer that.

nonesuch

Thanks for the good advice there @ICBM.

Here's a photo of the control cavity, I'm not sure what the remnants are of some black tape on the bottom. But my possible problem here is that the cavity doesn't actually have side walls, it continues into the hollow body area. Would I be able to make a 'false wall' of foil on the inner edge?

And is this the right kind of shielded cable?
Single Core Wire 30" With Metal Braided Screen
https://www.axesrus.co.uk/Single-Core-wire-30-with-Metal-Braided-Screen-p/metalbraid.htm

Funkfingers

The Axesrus cable will do the job but the braid could be a pig to solder at the pickup end.

I am tempted to suggest twin core plus shield. One conductor for the pickup signal. The other for grounding the start end of the coil. The screen goes to the metal baseplate or cover, respectively. 

This method will screen your pickup signals fully and permit additional sound options via a selector switch upgrade. e.g. CRL four-way, Schaller Superswitch M five-way* or a Freeway 3B3 six-way.


* Circuit diagram SS3

nonesuch

Thanks @Funkfingers that's probably worth thinking about for the shielded cable.

ICBM

nonesuch said:

Here's a photo of the control cavity, I'm not sure what the remnants are of some black tape on the bottom.

Something has been stuck on during manufacture, probably a label to identify the body and/or what colour it should be painted. You often see remains like this inside guitars, they don't bother about removing it cleanly because it will be hidden.

nonesuch said:

But my possible problem here is that the cavity doesn't actually have side walls, it continues into the hollow body area. Would I be able to make a 'false wall' of foil on the inner edge?

I forgot that. That does make it more tricky - if you extend the shielding as far as you can into the cavity it should be OK - a 'wall' may be difficult to make.

nonesuch said:

And is this the right kind of shielded cable?
Single Core Wire 30" With Metal Braided Screen
https://www.axesrus.co.uk/Single-Core-wire-30-with-Metal-Braided-Screen-p/metalbraid.htm

That will work, but you'll need some outer sleeving as well for areas where it will be near the controls.

You could use standard plastic outer layer coaxial cable, like this - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/361549783266

nonesuch

I've got all this bits and bobs I need and I've made a start with the shielding. It's not as neat as it could've been, but I think it's an alright first attempt. 

My first question is - do I need to link the three cavities together, with a wire going from the neck pickup to the control cavity, and a wire going from the bridge to the control cavity? Just soldered on?

Funkfingers

Yes.

nonesuch

@Funkfingers okay thanks, I'll do that.

Funkfingers

Check where the electronical gubbins goes in each cavity. Try to make your grounding connections where they will not obstruct anything. 

The bridge pickup cavity can share with the bridge ground. The semi-circular notch would be the obvious location.

The neck pickup screening might be best soldered in the "tunnel" under the pickguard. 

The control cavity connection is probably easiest to make mid way between the volume and tone pots.

My preference would be to ground all of the copper foil directly to the output jack socket rather than via the controls themselves. This will simply servicing.

ICBM

nonesuch said:

It's not as neat as it could've been, but I think it's an alright first attempt.

It's an excellent job by any standards.

nonesuch said:

My first question is - do I need to link the three cavities together, with a wire going from the neck pickup to the control cavity, and a wire going from the bridge to the control cavity? Just soldered on?

Funkfingers said:

Yes.

Funkfingers said:

Check where the electronical gubbins goes in each cavity. Try to make your grounding connections where they will not obstruct anything. 

The bridge pickup cavity can share with the bridge ground. The semi-circular notch would be the obvious location.

The neck pickup screening might be best soldered in the "tunnel" under the pickguard. 

The control cavity connection is probably easiest to make mid way between the volume and tone pots.

My preference would be to ground all of the copper foil directly to the output jack socket rather than via the controls themselves. This will simply servicing.

And ideally, you need to put a small spot of solder across the join between any two pieces of foil. (This is less of a faff than it sounds, it solders easily.) The supposedly conductive adhesive seems to dry out over time and become non-conductive, so if you haven't deliberately connected all the pieces together you can end up with some of them not being properly grounded, hence useless.

nonesuch

Thanks for the help so far. I've soldered two wires (actually more fiddly than I'd expected) and I've got continuity between the three cavities.

Next job is to wire up the new switch and pots, then pickups, but that's for another day!

nonesuch

Forgot to say that I'd also done the back of the pickguard. Possibly overkill to do the whole thing, not sure?

stickyfiddle

That looks like a good job well done to me! 

Don't forget all that shielding needs to all be connected to the ground on the output socket (apologies if stating the obvious but I don't think it had been explicitly said yet!)

I wouldn't say the full pickguard is overkill either - you basically want that shield to act as an antenna and pickup up that noise rather than letting it get to your wiring. 

nonesuch

stickyfiddle said:

Don't forget all that shielding needs to all be connected to the ground on the output socket (apologies if stating the obvious but I don't think it had been explicitly said yet!)

It is not obvious, so don't worry about saying it! I need all the help I can get! I love learning how to do all this stuff, and I'm certainly no expert...

I might have to check I'm doing the right thing when I get to that stage.

stickyfiddle

It's alright - we've all been there and it's good to have threads like this so we can all see what works and what doesn't. 

I always tell my juniors at work - the only stupid question is the third time you ask the same question without explaining what you don't understand about the first 2 answers! 

As for shielding, I fitted my Jaguar with the full set of cavity plates and it's still a little noisy with all that wiring, but it's definitely miles better than before. Twas a right pain to connect it all up though.

nonesuch

I've wired up the pots and switch, still need to do the new Oil City pickups.

I've also got an Electrosocket jack to fit. My question is - do I try and take that old retainer clip from the original jack, or do I leave it if it's doing no harm. The only possible issue of leaving it is that the screw thread of the new jack only just fits through so that it's flush with the socket. (see images) The clip is stopping it from poking through any further if you see what I mean.

And if I want to get it out, how can I? It seems to be very securely wedged in!

ICBM

If the Electrosocket goes fully in to the surface before it hits the retainer, I leave the retainer in as well - belt 'n' braces. If it won't then I remove it - you need to fold it in half in the middle, which is the reverse of how it got in there... you can see the crease lines either side of the jack hole. It's not a problem if the jack doesn't come any further through than that as long as your cable clicks in fully - it should, unless the plug diameter is huge.

I would also rotate the Electrosocket so the screw holes are lined up parallel with the side of the body, so the screws go into the deepest possible thickness of wood.