Acoustic duo - Need advice on blagging bass sounds while looping

PC_Dave

I've started an acoustic duo with a brilliant singer, and i'm using a Boss RC500 for all looping duties. I have made up a nice little pedal board and I bought a Boss OC5 for the purposes of attempting to create bass (ish) sounds on the loops. The only problem is I was a bit of a n00b and didn't consider the fact that the undersaddle pickup in my acoustic isn't really ideal for this purpose and the pedal is struggling to track the notes and it doesn't sound very good. Having read a bit more realised that magnetic pickups are more suited to the task, so I need advice on what I can do to either a) make use of the OC5 or b) come up with another solution (eg a mini synth keyboard or the like)

Can anyone give some useful ideas on what I can do/try?

Ta

paganskins

Hello @PC_Dave, are you using both the RC500's inputs and outputs currently, ie stereo in or out?

If not a cheap sound hole, magnetic pickup to the OC5 and then into the second input should work. That assumes you're running mono out so the RC500 is effectively summing the two signals to mono for you.

Also gives you the option of a vol pedal, eq or preamp to help shape the 'bass' tone but that's complicating matters perhaps? A kill switch would be useful though to turn the 'bass' on or off.

You'd need to use a stereo cable but that's not the end of the world.

paganskins

paganskins said:

Hello @PC_Dave, are you using both the RC500's inputs and outputs currently, ie stereo in or out?

If not a cheap sound hole, magnetic pickup to the OC5 and then into the second input should work. That assumes you're running mono out so the RC500 is effectively summing the two signals to mono for you.

Also gives you the option of a vol pedal, eq or preamp to help shape the 'bass' tone but that's complicating matters perhaps? A kill switch would be useful though to turn the 'bass' on or off.

You'd need to use a stereo cable but that's not the end of the world.

Also a mag pickup opens the possibility of 'electric' guitar sounds and effects.

PC_Dave

@paganskins - I was thinking about a magnetic pickup, but I'm not sure I can deal with the cabling faff on the guitar itself. Currently the connection as simple as:

Guitar > TU2 > OC5 > Mono in RC500 > Mono Out > TC HoF2 > PA

paganskins

PC_Dave said:

@paganskins - I was thinking about a magnetic pickup, but I'm not sure I can deal with the cabling faff on the guitar itself. Currently the connection as simple as:

Guitar > TU2 > OC5 > Mono in RC500 > Mono Out > TC HoF2 > PA

So the suggestion above would work.

It would be a cable like this so it's only the ends which would be bulkier.

But faff and potential for problems, with looping I assume following the KISS approach is probably best 

RickLucas

Not cheap, but the Fishman Rare Earth has a soundhole pickup and an internal condenser mic, which can be blended (or separated) in mono, or split via a stereo jack and routed to suit your requirements. 

thecolourbox

I was going to suggest trying to attach one of those Submarine pickups but now I see the wish for simpler cabling, i'm not sure if they can be installed to use with cables like Mr Paganskins has suggested. Might be worth a look though

steamabacus

PC_Dave said:

...the undersaddle pickup in my acoustic isn't really ideal for this purpose and the pedal is struggling to track the notes and it doesn't sound very good. Having read a bit more realised that magnetic pickups are more suited to the task, so I need advice on what I can do to either a) make use of the OC5 or b) come up with another solution (eg a mini synth keyboard or the like)

Can anyone give some useful ideas on what I can do/try?

Ta

I've only done this kind of thing with electric guitar so I'm only speculating really but my thoughts are that the problems will be with the dynamic transients and harmonic content of the acoustic guitar signal 'confusing' the pitch shifter.

So a solution may be some combination of graphic eq and/or compressor pedal(s) before the OC-5 for when you're laying down the bass parts. That would also avoid any complex cabling (if it works).

thecolourbox

Do you need to record the bass live every time? Could you not use a stored loop?

PC_Dave

RickLucas said:

Not cheap, but the Fishman Rare Earth has a soundhole pickup and an internal condenser mic, which can be blended (or separated) in mono, or split via a stereo jack and routed to suit your requirements. 

Yeah i've been looking at different ideas, but the guitar has the Taylor ESB system built in so I don't really want change it unless I absolutely have to. Good idea to consider though, thanks.

PC_Dave

steamabacus said:

PC_Dave said:

...the undersaddle pickup in my acoustic isn't really ideal for this purpose and the pedal is struggling to track the notes and it doesn't sound very good. Having read a bit more realised that magnetic pickups are more suited to the task, so I need advice on what I can do to either a) make use of the OC5 or b) come up with another solution (eg a mini synth keyboard or the like)

Can anyone give some useful ideas on what I can do/try?

Ta

I've only done this kind of thing with electric guitar so I'm only speculating really but my thoughts are that the problems will be with the dynamic transients and harmonic content of the acoustic guitar signal 'confusing' the pitch shifter.

So a solution may be some combination of graphic eq and/or compressor pedal(s) before the OC-5 for when you're laying down the bass parts. That would also avoid any complex cabling (if it works).

That's exactly it - the pickup is sending everything so it's confusing the octaver as it's receiving a messy signal

PC_Dave

thecolourbox said:

Do you need to record the bass live every time? Could you not use a stored loop?

It's all part and parcel of using a looper - I could record the bass but it would detract from building it up live and making changes etc

steamabacus

PC_Dave said:

steamabacus said:

PC_Dave said:

...the undersaddle pickup in my acoustic isn't really ideal for this purpose and the pedal is struggling to track the notes and it doesn't sound very good. Having read a bit more realised that magnetic pickups are more suited to the task, so I need advice on what I can do to either a) make use of the OC5 or b) come up with another solution (eg a mini synth keyboard or the like)

Can anyone give some useful ideas on what I can do/try?

Ta

I've only done this kind of thing with electric guitar so I'm only speculating really but my thoughts are that the problems will be with the dynamic transients and harmonic content of the acoustic guitar signal 'confusing' the pitch shifter.

So a solution may be some combination of graphic eq and/or compressor pedal(s) before the OC-5 for when you're laying down the bass parts. That would also avoid any complex cabling (if it works).

That's exactly it - the pickup is sending everything so it's confusing the octaver as it's receiving a messy signal

I'm wondering if the TC Electronic Hypergravity compressor might work? It's a multi-band compressor with all the tweakability (when using the toneprint editor) to tune it in for your particular purpose.

Trude

What mode are you using the OC5 in?

I use a GT1000 Core which has the OC3 features in it, and using the range filter I can get pretty good bass sounds live below the bottom D whilst strumming chords etc. This is with a K&K pure mini.

Have you tried the "lowest" setting on the OC5? I would think that should give you a cleaner result if you're playing single notes.

PC_Dave

@Trude ; I've tried all of the settings and still have the same result. Must be the pickup in the guitar.

Trude

@PC_Dave to be fair, in my application I never hear the bass sound in isolation. It's only ever slightly behind the natural acoustic sound. Maybe it sounds worse in your context because you're listening to it as loop and you need it to stand up on its own as a viable bass part?

Might be worth looking at the EHX Bass9 pedal as an alternative. It is more geared up to be a bass guitar simulator then the OC5, so might do a better job for you?

PC_Dave

@Trude It's not so much about it being a viable bass part as such, it's just what does come out is all flubby and the tracking is all over the place so it just sounds cack

ICBM

If you don't want an extra pickup and cabling faff on the guitar - which I understand - try splitting the signal at the TU-2, using the 'bypass' output (which isn't muted when tuning, so you will need another option for that), go through an EQ with the lowest bass frequencies high and all the others turned fully off, then to the OC-5. That might take away the high frequencies which are confusing the OC-5 - at minimum, it will make the 'bass' sound more of a low rumble so it might make tracking errors less obvious. You may also then want to use the B input on the RC-500, although I'm not familiar enough with how it's set up to know if that would help (or solve the muting issue when tuning).

menamestom

Have you tried the OC5 with an electric guitar?
I’m thinking of getting one for the same use if they ever become available again, just wondering if it’s the pedal or definitely the acoustic signal.