Okay... another comparison....

guitarfishbay

I have found a few quotes from Cliff..

From this thread http://forum.fractalaudio.com/cliffs-notes/78003-about-speaker-lf-resonance.html

 Originally Posted by miknshla 

If one IR was done with a SS amp and another IR of the same speaker is done with a Tube Amp, wouldn't the Tube amp IR have the resonant frequency response baked in and therefore be a little warmer, boomier sounding?

"Most definitely. You can clearly hear it in the Ownhammer IRs. The IRs made using a tube amp have a noticeably more scooped tone."

And this http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-discussion/47917-amp-speaker-tab-versus-amp-graphic-eq.html

"

The speaker tab is not an EQ. It allows you to adjust the impedance that the virtual speaker presents to the virtual power tubes. In most cases the resulting EQ is quite different than the impedance curve since negative feedback flattens the response. If you turn the damping all the way down then the EQ will be close to the impedance curve (but still influenced by the transformer)."

guitarfishbay

Drew_fx said:

guitarfishbay said:

It is a shame nobody has posted 'correct' data for commonly available standard cabs for tweaking the speaker tab during use with SS poweramps.

I was kind of under the impression that the data needs to change from amp to amp. IE: Using a range of valve amps with the same cab will result in the cab seeing a range of different impendances, frequency responses, and thus different resonance Q's and amounts... or have I got that wrong?

No I'm probably oversimplifying what I understand (talking about use through a cab in this instance).  I'm sort of assuming SS poweramps like the Matrix are almost blank canvas but it probably isn't the case (whereas valve poweramps have a more baked in resonance/interaction with the speakers by default).

Basically I have no clue at this level of technical discussion.  Have you tried messing with the speaker tab at all yet?  Cliff talks about it quite a bit in the OP here http://forum.fractalaudio.com/cliffs-notes/78003-about-speaker-lf-resonance.html

In this thread Scott talks about tweaking it http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-discussion/55045-v6-firmware-time-release-monster-speaker-resonance-page.html

guitarfishbay

Just incase anyone isn't aware, the Axe has the capability to create IRs from the unit (you still need mics and a mic pre obviously!).  Here is their tutorial video.  I'm hoping to create a few IRs of my own at some point specifically to try to capture the tone I'd use in a band context... the thinking is that I can send that to FOH as/when necessary as opposed to using a stock IR (which won't respond like my cab). 

guitarfishbay

guitarfishbay said:

The name escapes me but there's a rock producer who mics up the Axe for his tones too. 

It is Nick Raskulinecz, spotted the video when posting the IR capture vid.

At 1:37 he says he mics it up.

Drew_TNBD

guitarfishbay said:

Have you tried messing with the speaker tab at all yet?

Yes, I've messed with most parameters on the unit now. I've figured that for some amps I need more hi res and less low res, like the Das Metall for instance. Others I need to reduce the resonance frequency in the lows to somewhere around 80hz instead of the default 110hz, to clear some wooliness.

guitarfishbay

Cool. Well if you're still finding the Kemper more punchy then maybe the IR is the limiting factor.

Drew_TNBD

Okay... one final comparison before I stop annoying you guys

One of these is Kemper, the other is Axe FX II.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/630473/GearDemos/PreampComparison/Track 1(2).wav
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/630473/GearDemos/PreampComparison/Track 2(2).wav

koneguitarist

Don't think it matters with that much distortion, I certainly can't tell.

koneguitarist

Could you try some clean tones, without effects?

Drew_TNBD

koneguitarist said:

Could you try some clean tones, without effects?

Sure. You got an amp in mind?

PVO_Dave

Is there an Ax equivalent of the Morgan AC20 profile?

Not clean, but can do the great breaking up sound and a classic rock type distortion.

steamabacus

Drew_fx said:

Okay... one final comparison before I stop annoying you guys

One of these is Kemper, the other is Axe FX II.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/630473/GearDemos/PreampComparison/Track 1(2).wav
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/630473/GearDemos/PreampComparison/Track 2(2).wav

Much closer this time. The first one sounds better to me. Once again, the same reasons (though subtler differences) - it sounds more open, more depth, sounds a bit more 'alive'.

If you can be bothered to keep doing comparisons, I'd be interested in hearing the differences in a mix - just a basic bit of bass and drums - to see if the differences betwwen them become more or less obvious.

guitarfishbay

Drew_fx said:

Okay... one final comparison before I stop annoying you guys

One of these is Kemper, the other is Axe FX II.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/630473/GearDemos/PreampComparison/Track 1(2).wav
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/630473/GearDemos/PreampComparison/Track 2(2).wav

I slightly prefer 1 on these Sony Headphones, I'm guessing it is the Kemper?  I don't really trust the headphones for judging much other than brightness though they make everything sound really dull to me!  I bought them for a 'commercial' reference, since my preference is to not have tracks sound too bright - when I had the Yamaha monitors all my mixes seemed too dull on other systems.

I don't think either would make/break a recording and I'd imagine that some of the low end may get filtered out anyway come mixdown either way.  I'll also say - that until I got some better speakers and improved the treatment in my room I did find it quite hard to tell on speakers what I can pick out on headphones.  Since most people don't have anything approaching a good listening environment I'd be inclined to think that by the time you've got a Kemper profile close to the real amp that for all intents and purposes it will be indistinguishable for most listeners.

FWIW I found it fairly easy to tell between Amplitube and Axe FX when you did that test - filtering a little of the extremes revealed fairly flat dynamics from Amplitube (though pleasing tone) but the Axe dynamics were definitely superior when filtered.  I'd imagine the Kemper will still also sound great when filtered to fit a mix and possibly still 'best', not knocking it at all, just saying I personally still think the Axe is better than plugins.  

Thinking onwards - how about some bass tests?

My inclination is that the Kemper should fare better, due to the low end characteristics... But - basses can sound radically different from each other, so I wonder how useful profiles made by other people will be.

Drew_TNBD

Well in that latest test... 1 was Kemper and 2 was Axe FX. The Kemper was a profile of the Axe FX II. So both used the exact same cab and amp model. The settings were probably different though, as it wasn't my profile. Just one I grabbed off the rig exchange.

I preferred the Kemper. The low-end seems a bit more powerful to me in that comparison.

Bass tests coming at some point. I found some Darkglass B7K profiles that I really want to try!

guitarfishbay

Cool, looking forward to the bass results.  If anything, just post what you're getting out of the Darkglass Kemper profiles.  One of my concerns when considering the Kemper was that my own bass guitar wouldn't work well with profiles made by other people.  There is a pretty massive difference between how certain basses sound (IMO potentially more than the difference between two bridge humbuckers), which would be key in how you'd tweak the gear. 

Are they the profiles that the guy on the Sneap board made a while back?

Also, are you sticking to free profiles or have you started buying yet?  Another one of my concerns was I'd go nuts buying lots of rig packs...

I think overall, despite preferring the Kemper in your recording tests so far I still think I've made the right choice in the Axe for what my own needs are.  What I have discovered though is that I'd probably rather buy a Kemper for home recording rather than another amp right now.  Still feeling good about my last usage of the Axe at band practice, have another practice tonight.

steamabacus

Very interesting.

How are you recording these onto the computer - purely digitally or from analogue outs on the Kemper/AxeFX into your desk/interface?

Drew_TNBD

steamabacus said:

Very interesting.

How are you recording these onto the computer - purely digitally or from analogue outs on the Kemper/AxeFX into your desk/interface?

Analogue outs from each unit into my MOTU 8 Pre.

steamabacus

Well, just to chuck in another complicating factor, preamp/buffer design has an affect on the sound. Might even acount for the 'depth' of tone I'm hearing? Does the Kemper simply have better analogue electronics?

Drew_TNBD

guitarfishbay said:

Cool, looking forward to the bass results.  If anything, just post what you're getting out of the Darkglass Kemper profiles.

Aye I will do!

Are they the profiles that the guy on the Sneap board made a while back?

You mean the Darkglass profiles or the Axe profiles? Darkglass profiles I've seen on the Kemper forum, Axe profiles I just grabbed from the Rig Manager software. Which actually.. works really damn well.

Also, are you sticking to free profiles or have you started buying yet?  Another one of my concerns was I'd go nuts buying lots of rig packs...

Nope. I haven't bought any rig packs. I think I'll steer clear of The Amp Factory ones. All of the clips sound like the cabs were mic'd too far away, and there are a fair amount of reflections in them. That isn't what I like to do. I like to close mic and kill as much of the room as possible.

I think overall, despite preferring the Kemper in your recording tests so far I still think I've made the right choice in the Axe for what my own needs are.  What I have discovered though is that I'd probably rather buy a Kemper for home recording rather than another amp right now.  Still feeling good about my last usage of the Axe at band practice, have another practice tonight.

I actually agree with you. For direct recording I prefer the simplicity and volume of a box. Between the Axe and Kemper, I'm leaning towards the Kemper. In my room, a real amp just isn't feasible. I can do it... but not as often as I would realistically like.

There is still potential in the future for me to move over to the Axe FX for live performance. But I've never quite managed to get the simplicity that I'm after. My rig is really damn simple with the D-Moll and a few pedals. Plus I would need a poweramp of some kind still, and that is a rabbit hole that I'm rather keen to avoid right now. I need to stop fucking around with gear and crack on with writing music for a change!

Drew_TNBD

One thing I can say is that when downloading Axe FX II presets, I always felt like they weren't really usable and required lots of reverse engineering in order to get them to sound good with my guitar and playing style. I don't feel that way with the Kemper. I've downloaded probably about 80 profiles so far and the "transferability" is really consistently high.

There is a user called 'r.u.sirius' who has profiled the Diezel VH4, Herbert, and Einstein and his profiles are really really good.