Strat mod - 50s wiring vs treble bleed?

JonnyBgoode

One of my Strats has fairly hot handwound pickups (6.5 at neck and bridge) and sounds good on neck and middle pickups with volume and treble wide open. I have both pickups pretty much in line with the pickguard and can get good clarity with a chunky bass string tone.

Any dipping of the volume and things get murky quickly, and I'm playing around with fuzzes and treble boosters at the mo to get that clean up/roll back control from the volume knob.

Have just bought a cheap treble bleed  kit cap/resistor pair in parallel from Ebay to see if I like it but just wondered if anyone here had tried the 50's wiring mod and treble bleed(s) on the same Strat and had any comparisons to share?

https://www.premierguitar.com/gear/gibson-50s-wiring-on-a-stratocaster

Funkfingers

JonnyBgoode said:

Any dipping of the volume and things get murky quickly, and I'm playing around with fuzzes and treble boosters at the mo to get that clean up/roll back control from the volume knob.

Unless your Stratocaster has an unusually deep neck pocket, your pickups are set too far away from your strings.

6.5k Ohms is not even a 10% overwind.

Winny_Pooh

Do the Kinman treble bypass mod on the volume pot, great with fuzzes etc.

JonnyBgoode

Funkfingers said:

Unless your Stratocaster has an unusually deep neck pocket, your pickups are set too far away from your strings.

Nope, plenty of people set them like that. I've owned many Strats and often find I get the best tone with the pickups low - more chime and clarity, still plenty of output with gain. 

I just checked and the neck PU is actually about 1mm above the guard. For comparison my JV neck pickup however, is dead level with the pickguard, any higher and I start to get Stratitis on the low E, and that has  lower output pickups.  So you cannot generalise these things

Anyway, back on topic..

Winny_Pooh said:

Do the Kinman treble bypass mod on the volume pot, great with fuzzes etc.

Ah that's the resistor and cap in series rather than parallel I think? So many differing opinions on which works best, guess I'll have to try. Would still be interested in the comparison in my question though, will probably give it a go anyhow as its a simple change.

Corvus

I like series better, it has less effect on pot taper - or just a small cap a la PRS. With a TB into fuzz, rolling the vol accentuates the brightness a fuzz gives, and with a treble bleed (pass - ICBM ) that sounds fine in clean & other drives, it can get extra skinny.

On a Strat you can add two little fly leads and let them poke out from under the p/g; try components on that and dodge the plate on/off faff. When happy tuck them in the cavity. At some convenient point just ditch the fly leads if you want, does no harm having them though if the joints are insulated.

Dave_Mc

I don't like using a resistor- it messes with the pot taper. That being said, a lot of people prefer it- it really does seem to depend what you use your volume knob for (and also just personal preference). I tend to roll back from heavily distorted to clean, and for that just a capacitor (with a judiciously chosen value- I like 180pF for humbuckers, 220pF for single coils, though those values are pretty close and almost identical and I'd be happy with either, it must be said!) seems to work better. If you ride your volume a lot more, the resistor option gives you a more even taper, more like linear (assuming your volume pot is logarithmic) which can give you finer control at higher numbers on the volume pot (logarithmic gives you finer control at "almost off" i.e. where you tend to live if rolling back to clean).

Which fuzzes are you using? Some of them don't like treble bleeds at all. Also the Strat control layout means you can't use the "Falbo mod" treble bleed circuit- which is really the best one that I've tried. It's a subtle improvement (and only noticeable if you use the tone knob alongside the volume knob) but it means that if you turn the tone and volume knobs both down a bit, things don't sound so "flat" and uninspiring.

Basically because of the fuzz thing and also Falbo mod thing, I'd put the treble bleed on a switch on a Strat so that you can switch it in or out. You can use a standard push-pull or push-push, or a DPDT mini switch if you prefer.



(The left-hand one has the treble bleed engaged when the knob is pushed down, the right-hand one has it engaged when it's pulled up... it's up to you which way round you prefer.)

I haven't tried 50s wiring on a Strat, but I have tried it in more Gibson-style guitars... it's better than nothing but a treble bleed is more effective if you really don't like the murk when you turn down. Plus 50s wiring affects the tone pot too and makes them interactive- that's what you always read online, anyway. In plain English, what that means is that if you turn your volume knob down a bit, and then turn the tone knob down, the volume drops more before the tone really changes (and vice-versa). To get down to really clean, you have to roll the volume knob down almost all the way, and then turn the tone knob down to about 7 too... which is kind of annoying on the fly (and really annoying on a guitar with multiple volume and tone knobs if you're in the middle position, you have 4 knobs to turn!). EDIT: Also what it says in your link about the overall tone getting "stronger and more transparent. It's difficult to describe, but perhaps saying it's more “in your face" would be a good way to describe it" is kind of made up. That's just not true.

Corvus said:

On a Strat you can add two little fly leads and let them poke out from under the p/g; try components on that and dodge the plate on/off faff. When happy tuck them in the cavity. At some convenient point just ditch the fly leads if you want, does no harm having them though if the joints are insulated.

Yeah it's definitely worth trying a bunch of different values and the 3 different main circuits (capacitor alone, capacitor + resistor in parallel and capacitor plus resistor in series) to see which you prefer. I was lucky enough to try it in a rear-routed guitar as it's a bit more awkward in a Strat with the pickguard, but as you said, those flying leads shouldn't make it too hard, especially if you attach crocodile clips to the ends (or attach crocodile clips to the capacitor) and then just remove them when you're done...

ICBM

Dave_Mc said:

That's such a stupid way of wiring a switch - but very common. It's completely unnecessary to switch both ends of the resistor/cap network - disconnecting only one end breaks the circuit. All wiring it like that does is increase unreliability and switching noise.

One end of the cap and resistor should be connected to the pot input, the other end to *both* terminals B and E, and the pot output to A and D, or C and F (ie both switch poles in parallel).

roberty

I prefer both to modern wiring but don't have a preference between the two. I tend to go 50s cos it's quick and easy

JonnyBgoode

Dave_Mc said:

I don't like using a resistor- it messes with the pot taper. That being said, a lot of people prefer it- it really does seem to depend what you use your volume knob for (and also just personal preference). I tend to roll back from heavily distorted to clean, and for that just a capacitor (with a judiciously chosen value- I like 180pF for humbuckers, 220pF for single coils, though those values are pretty close and almost identical and I'd be happy with either, it must be said!) seems to work better. If you ride your volume a lot more, the resistor option gives you a more even taper, more like linear (assuming your volume pot is logarithmic) which can give you finer control at higher numbers on the volume pot (logarithmic gives you finer control at "almost off" i.e. where you tend to live if rolling back to clean).

Which fuzzes are you using? Some of them don't like treble bleeds at all. 

I haven't tried 50s wiring on a Strat, but I have tried it in more Gibson-style guitars... it's better than nothing but a treble bleed is more effective if you really don't like the murk when you turn down. Plus 50s wiring affects the tone pot too and makes them interactive- that's what you always read online, anyway. In plain English, what that means is that if you turn your volume knob down a bit, and then turn the tone knob down, the volume drops more before the tone really changes (and vice-versa). To get down to really clean, you have to roll the volume knob down almost all the way, and then turn the tone knob down to about 7 too... which is kind of annoying on the fly (and really annoying on a guitar with multiple volume and tone knobs if you're in the middle position, you have 4 knobs to turn!). EDIT: Also what it says in your link about the overall tone getting "stronger and more transparent. It's difficult to describe, but perhaps saying it's more “in your face" would be a good way to describe it" is kind of made up. That's just not true.

Ok thanks, lots to digest there.  I'm trying a Pedal Pawn fuzz at the mo, and will probably get their Texan Twang too for comparison and hopefully (for my wallets sake) end up with which ever one I like best that gives me Voodoo Chile thick smooth lead (full volume) rolling back to very sparkly glassy cleans (think SRV Little Wing or better still Philip Sayce territory).

Had some time this afternoon so I've just done the 50s wiring mod to begin with. First impressions sound pretty good, its certainly helped treble loss when I roll back volume.. I seem to have lost tone control on my middle pickup but maybe that's inevitable, not sure.  Will try full out fuzz fun tomorrow when the neighbours will forgive me (my studio is in the garden..)

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

Dave_Mc said:

That's such a stupid way of wiring a switch - but very common. It's completely unnecessary to switch both ends of the resistor/cap network - disconnecting only one end breaks the circuit. All wiring it like that does is increase unreliability and switching noise.

One end of the cap and resistor should be connected to the pot input, the other end to *both* terminals B and E, and the pot output to A and D, or C and F (ie both switch poles in parallel).

LOL don't blame me, blame Fralin!

I'll keep that in mind for when I wire any again in the future. (On quite a few guitars I'm only disconnecting one end anyway because I use that "amp tone mod/falbo mod" treble bleed that only has one end of the cap connected to the volume control anyway.)

Why is so much guitar info- even on sites which should know better- wrong?  It's kind of hard to learn when sites you should be able to trust you, er, can't...

Dave_Mc

JonnyBgoode said:

Dave_Mc said:

I don't like using a resistor- it messes with the pot taper. That being said, a lot of people prefer it- it really does seem to depend what you use your volume knob for (and also just personal preference). I tend to roll back from heavily distorted to clean, and for that just a capacitor (with a judiciously chosen value- I like 180pF for humbuckers, 220pF for single coils, though those values are pretty close and almost identical and I'd be happy with either, it must be said!) seems to work better. If you ride your volume a lot more, the resistor option gives you a more even taper, more like linear (assuming your volume pot is logarithmic) which can give you finer control at higher numbers on the volume pot (logarithmic gives you finer control at "almost off" i.e. where you tend to live if rolling back to clean).

Which fuzzes are you using? Some of them don't like treble bleeds at all. 

I haven't tried 50s wiring on a Strat, but I have tried it in more Gibson-style guitars... it's better than nothing but a treble bleed is more effective if you really don't like the murk when you turn down. Plus 50s wiring affects the tone pot too and makes them interactive- that's what you always read online, anyway. In plain English, what that means is that if you turn your volume knob down a bit, and then turn the tone knob down, the volume drops more before the tone really changes (and vice-versa). To get down to really clean, you have to roll the volume knob down almost all the way, and then turn the tone knob down to about 7 too... which is kind of annoying on the fly (and really annoying on a guitar with multiple volume and tone knobs if you're in the middle position, you have 4 knobs to turn!). EDIT: Also what it says in your link about the overall tone getting "stronger and more transparent. It's difficult to describe, but perhaps saying it's more “in your face" would be a good way to describe it" is kind of made up. That's just not true.

Ok thanks, lots to digest there.  I'm trying a Pedal Pawn fuzz at the mo, and will probably get their Texan Twang too for comparison and hopefully (for my wallets sake) end up with which ever one I like best that gives me Voodoo Chile thick smooth lead (full volume) rolling back to very sparkly glassy cleans (think SRV Little Wing or better still Philip Sayce territory).

Had some time this afternoon so I've just done the 50s wiring mod to begin with. First impressions sound pretty good, its certainly helped treble loss when I roll back volume.. I seem to have lost tone control on my middle pickup but maybe that's inevitable, not sure.  Will try full out fuzz fun tomorrow when the neighbours will forgive me (my studio is in the garden..)

I think Philip Sayce uses a fuzz face a fair bit? I know a fuzz face is definitely one of the ones which doesn't like a treble bleed, the low impedance input means it actually reacts really well to the volume's being rolled down if there's no treble bleed there, which means it's way too bright if there is one (a rangemaster treble booster is similar in that regard... a lot of those vintage-style pedals with low input impedance are affected).

I'm not sure about the tone knob- @ICBM should be able to clarify, I think 50s wiring is a little harder with a Strat because of the master volume but separate tones. But it also could just be that you accidentally disconnected the middle tone pot when you were soldering.

ICBM

Both tones should work fine, if you’ve done the mod correctly. The tone selection side of the switch should be connected to the middle terminal of the volume pot not to the pickup side of the switch, that’s the only difference.

JonnyBgoode

Dave_Mc said:

I think Philip Sayce uses a fuzz face a fair bit? I know a fuzz face is definitely one of the ones which doesn't like a treble bleed, the low impedance input means it actually reacts really well to the volume's being rolled down if there's no treble bleed there, which means it's way too bright if there is one (a rangemaster treble booster is similar in that regard... a lot of those vintage-style pedals with low input impedance are affected).

I know he uses a Diaz modded fuzz face - Texas Square face - plus he has a treble bleed. His Rangemaster clone is the Diaz version also. Think he has some other fuzzes in there as well. Mind you he does sometimes have it VERY bright.

JonnyBgoode

ICBM said:

Both tones should work fine, if you’ve done the mod correctly. The tone selection side of the switch should be connected to the middle terminal of the volume pot not to the pickup side of the switch, that’s the only difference.

Right, sounds like I've desoldered the middle PU then. Thanks, will check.

ICBM

Dave_Mc said:

LOL don't blame me, blame Fralin!

I'll keep that in mind for when I wire any again in the future. (On quite a few guitars I'm only disconnecting one end anyway because I use that "amp tone mod/falbo mod" treble bleed that only has one end of the cap connected to the volume control anyway.)

Why is so much guitar info- even on sites which should know better- wrong?  It's kind of hard to learn when sites you should be able to trust you, er, can't...

[Thread diversion, but worth saying]

To be fair, it's not just Fralin - the worst I've come across is the factory wiring on the Yamaha Revstars. These have a bass-cut switch, which puts a cap in series with the output. Yamaha wire it - if you use the terminal designation above - with the input connected to B, the output to E, the cap connected between A and D, and the bypass between C and F. This means that the signal always goes through the two switch poles in series, so a fault in *either* pole will stop the guitar working completely - and also, there's a very brief open circuit as the switch moves, so switching makes a lot of noise.

The correct way to wire it is much simpler - input to B and E, output to C and F, and the cap between the two, so the cap is always in the circuit and the switch bypasses the cap by shorting across it. This means that it would require a fault in *both* switch poles simultaneously to even stop the bypass working, and in the worst case if the switch falls apart completely, the cap will still pass signal so the guitar will work, albeit only in bass-cut mode. And because the switch isn't interrupting the signal path at all, switching noise is almost eliminated.

It can't even be for cost reasons - the incorrect way Yamaha use is actually *more* labour-intensive than the correct way... but a lot of circuit designers seem to have no idea at all about this sort of thing. It really matters, for gig-worthy gear - it's not just guitars either, many amps and the majority of true-bypass pedals have the same sort of ignorance about failure mode protection. In most cases it's either very little or even no more work to do it right than wrong.

[/this might need a separate thread, really]

Dave_Mc

JonnyBgoode said:

Dave_Mc said:

I think Philip Sayce uses a fuzz face a fair bit? I know a fuzz face is definitely one of the ones which doesn't like a treble bleed, the low impedance input means it actually reacts really well to the volume's being rolled down if there's no treble bleed there, which means it's way too bright if there is one (a rangemaster treble booster is similar in that regard... a lot of those vintage-style pedals with low input impedance are affected).

I know he uses a Diaz modded fuzz face - Texas Square face - plus he has a treble bleed. His Rangemaster clone is the Diaz version also. Think he has some other fuzzes in there as well. Mind you he does sometimes have it VERY bright.

I'm not familiar with those exact pedals, but if they're modded I guess it's possible the impedance has been adjusted to allow for the treble bleed. Or the other thing is that maybe (I'm not that familiar with his playing, I only just know he's really good!) he doesn't actually roll down his volume knob when using those pedals- the treble bleed will only make things too bright when rolling the volume knob down, it won't make any difference at full volume. (I guess another option would be that he's deliberately using a pretty low treble bleed cap value so it's not too bright!)

ICBM said:

Dave_Mc said:

LOL don't blame me, blame Fralin!

I'll keep that in mind for when I wire any again in the future. (On quite a few guitars I'm only disconnecting one end anyway because I use that "amp tone mod/falbo mod" treble bleed that only has one end of the cap connected to the volume control anyway.)

Why is so much guitar info- even on sites which should know better- wrong?  It's kind of hard to learn when sites you should be able to trust you, er, can't...

[Thread diversion, but worth saying]

To be fair, it's not just Fralin - the worst I've come across is the factory wiring on the Yamaha Revstars. These have a bass-cut switch, which puts a cap in series with the output. Yamaha wire it - if you use the terminal designation above - with the input connected to B, the output to E, the cap connected between A and D, and the bypass between C and F. This means that the signal always goes through the two switch poles in series, so a fault in *either* pole will stop the guitar working completely - and also, there's a very brief open circuit as the switch moves, so switching makes a lot of noise.

The correct way to wire it is much simpler - input to B and E, output to C and F, and the cap between the two, so the cap is always in the circuit and the switch bypasses the cap by shorting across it. This means that it would require a fault in *both* switch poles simultaneously to even stop the bypass working, and in the worst case if the switch falls apart completely, the cap will still pass signal so the guitar will work, albeit only in bass-cut mode. And because the switch isn't interrupting the signal path at all, switching noise is almost eliminated.

It can't even be for cost reasons - the incorrect way Yamaha use is actually *more* labour-intensive than the correct way... but a lot of circuit designers seem to have no idea at all about this sort of thing. It really matters, for gig-worthy gear - it's not just guitars either, many amps and the majority of true-bypass pedals have the same sort of ignorance about failure mode protection. In most cases it's either very little or even no more work to do it right than wrong.

[/this might need a separate thread, really]

Wow that's crazy. It definitely is bewildering when the "right" way to do it, as you said, is actually no more bother than the wrong way. If I did gig, I'd be super-worried about reliability, that's probably the single most important thing really.

I don't pretend to understand this stuff- I'm trying to, and I'm getting better, but at the same time the wiring is a means to an end for me. I enjoy it more than I used to, but I'm still not sure I'll ever get into the category of actually enjoying it. What I actually enjoy is playing the guitar, and it makes more sense to put more effort into the playing- however being able to wire things the way I want, experiment with more esoteric wiring, and fix minor wiring faults myself lets me enjoy the guitar better.

(Funnily enough I actually do enjoy knowing about the different circuit possibilities etc.., it's the actual practical doing it that I'm not so fond of... probably because I'm not that mechanically-minded and find it a bit difficult!)

JonnyBgoode

Well the 50's wiring mod seems to work just fine for me. No longer getting muddy when I turn down the volume knob but neither does the tone thin out, as I've heard is a problem with some treble bleeds. Plays well with the fuzz roll off/clean up too.

I wasn't relishing trying out loads of cap/resistor values, in series vs parallel. etc, so this is great. 

roberty

@JonnyBgoode nice one. I'm all for having an easy life

Dave_Mc

roberty said:

@JonnyBgoode nice one. I'm all for having an easy life

Yep ditto, same here. Although I prefer a treble bleed (apart from a few guitars which kind of suit 50s), I'm probably doing the handier thing, too- I prefer a cap alone, so that's a fair bit less bother than having to solder a resistor as well.

TJT1979

I really like the Kinman mod, mentioned above. Google it for details.

For anybdy interested, it's important to note that the 'standard' values you'll find listed are for a 250K volume pot. If I remember correctly, the recommended resistor value will be 130K. I tried this for a guitar with 500K pots and it sounded terrible. After experimenting a while, I realised the resistor needs to be ~50% of the value of the pot. This gives a really natural sweep. So with my 500K pots I tried 220K, 240K etc and chose the one I liked best. Higher resistance will mean slightly darker as you roll back the volume. Lower value resistor will allow more treble through.