Marshall lead and bass 50

billando

After playing it a bit im not certain everything is right with it. I have seen youtube vids of these where they say its already loud at 1/2 on the volume and at 2 on the volume its real loud and crunchy. I read somewhere Paul Weller keeps his around 2 on the volume because that has all the crunch and volume he needs......but even at 3 on mine it is still completely clean and loud but not really loud. Doesnt crunch until around half way and doesnt seem as crisp as the others ive heard. Not sure if there is an issue here or not. I was thinking of sending it to Marshall to have a good look over and advise if anything is holding it back. 

billando

I hadnt played this amp for a few months. It got a valve rebias since i last posted. All of a sudden ive found some love for it. The loud thick clean sound sounds great and using an attenuator just a little lets me get to crunchy tones. I considered selling it but im going to try it with the band first to see how it performs. Also, i played it through a different combo's speakers and it seemed more punchy. I dont know that much about speakers but can they "dull" over time? If i was to replace them what might be a good option? For what its worth just now it has olx g1265s and i cant say im a fan of the new g1265 creambacks.

Petepassion

Best attenuator I’ve used with a Marshall is the Powerbrake, even better than the Ironman.
   Although my Boss TAE was also very good, but more complex…great if you want versatility, multiple channels of different EQ, compression, delay, reverb and boost. Plus, because it’s a re-amper the sound is the same no matter what the volume.

ICBM

What cone codes are the G12-65s - 1777 or 444?

billando

I will check tonight. What would it mean if they had either of those codes?

ICBM

1777 are ‘lead’ cones, 444 are ‘bass’.

If you can’t see the codes, you can cross-check from the T numbers, assuming they haven’t been re-coned.

billando

Ok so are you saying it would be better to have the lead cones for guitar use?

ICBM

That depends what you want… a lot of people prefer the 444s with bright amps like Marshalls. On the other hand, the Lead & Bass is more of a bass amp in a guitar combo cabinet, so 1777s might be better. It may even have them already - it’s really quite a bassy amp compared to the 50W MV combo.

billando

Actually says T2973 on the speakers....and they both say 8ohm. What impedance should my amp be set to??

ICBM

T2973s are PA drivers with thick smooth cones, and sound dull - that would explain the sound you're getting. This is a big problem with G12-65s, they made loads of different models with different specs and only a few are really good for guitar - T3053 (8 ohm) and T3054 (16 ohm) are the classic ones, with 1777 cones. (I can't remember the T numbers for the 444 ones off the top of my head.)

If they're 8 ohm, how are they wired? Series - one wire from the amp to each speaker, one wire between the speakers - then the amp should be set to 16 ohms. Parallel - two wires from the amp to one speaker, two wires from that speaker to the other one (make sure they're actually joined to the first speaker, and one doesn't just bypass it) - then the amp should be set to 4 ohms.

billando

Thanks for the info. Im kinda torn with this amp cos although its quite unique id have to change the speakers but ive also played it through other cabs speakers and its not exactly blown me away. Ive been selling a lot of stuff lately so if this also goes also ill have a bit of cash to spend on a special amp with an old school vibe. Doesnt have to be an old amp could be something new. Any suggestions? Im really into the who and paul wellers stanley road type tone at the minute.

ICBM

Classic Who live sound is Hiwatt of course… although Townshend used smaller amps in the studio, in particular a tweed Bandmaster (basically a 3x10” Bassman) on Who’s Next. Stanley Road is probably the Lead & Bass, although I don’t know for sure what he used in the studio.

A ‘59 Bassman reissue might split the difference quite well… nice big vibrant crunchy tone, loud but not stupidly so. Older ones came with a solid-state rectifier (not sure if they still do) but it’s a plug-in which you can replace with a valve for a bit more compression. The only major disadvantage is needing a 2-ohm attenuator and a special wiring loom if you need to attenuate it.

I would still probably change the speakers in the Lead & Bass though - G12M-25 Greenbacks would brighten it up a lot and probably sound a lot closer to Weller’s sound. I don’t know if his amp has them - it would have when original, but the old ones quite often got blown as the amp is a bit too powerful for them. Not an issue if you attenuate even one click though.

billando

Ok thanks i was also about to get rid of my vintage modern combo with G12c speakers until i saw a demo of a guy using low dynamic range with basically master all the way up, detail all the way up and body half way...think presence was and mids were almost full too and bass at zero...anyway it sounded great so thats now a keeper and cant wait to try that with the band on friday (down couple clicks with the attenuator). Dont know much about these speakers are they 25w greenbacks? Should i play lead and bass through them to see? I did toy with a bandmaster ill check them out again. I have a couple wem dominators i love but frustratingly although both are 17w (i think) one is a smidge too loud at our pub gigs (it stays clean and cant use attenuator) and one isnt powerful enough.

ICBM

G12Cs are basically G12M-25s - they may be slightly different (ie like Marshall’s Vintage vs a standard V30) but they will be quite similar - I haven’t directly A/B’d them though. I would try them with the Lead & Bass.

If you were going to buy new speakers for it, Heritage G12H-30s are another good option - they’re not quite the same voicing as the originals, but they’re great and will handle the power. They have more top-end and cleaner mids than the G12M-25. (Not the same as the 70th Anniversary G12H-30, which is tighter and darker.)

If you’re going to take the Vintage Modern, take a backup .

billando

Ha noted

billando

I noticed when i have been using the marshall power brake there has been an impedance missmatch. The attenuator only has 8 and 16ohm settings but the amp is 4ohm having two 8ohm speakers. Should i not use the attenuator at all? If theres a safe missmatch will the sound suffer? I do have a fryette i can use at 4ohm but i dont really get on with it. 

billando

With the lead and bass combo i mean

ICBM

It's fine if you set the amp to 8 ohms and use the 8-ohm setting on the Powerbrake - what matters is that the amp is matched to the attenuator, since that's the load on it. The speaker impedance doesn't matter, since the amp can't see it. (Just don't bypass the attenuator with the amp cranked right up... not that you're very likely to!)

Personally I would rewire the speakers to series (16 ohms) though, unless you're planning to replace them very soon.

billando

Ok thanks im still thinking about changing the speakers....if i get two 16ohm speakers thats ok i can use 8ohm on amp and attenuator right? And you are saying two 8ohm speakers can be wired to 16ohm as opposed to the 4ohm it is just now?

Also,...in the current setup where its 4ohm and you said its ok to set to 8ohm will this not affect the sound? (If its supposed to be 4ohm) lots of questions

ICBM

billando said:

Ok thanks im still thinking about changing the speakers....if i get two 16ohm speakers thats ok i can use 8ohm on amp and attenuator right? And you are saying two 8ohm speakers can be wired to 16ohm as opposed to the 4ohm it is just now?

Yes and yes. The original set-up for the amp would have been two 16-ohm speakers in parallel for 8 ohms, but two 8s in series for 16 is fine too.

Series wiring: the + wire from the amp goes to the + terminal on one speaker; the - wire from the amp goes to the - terminal on the other speaker, and there's a third wire between the remaining + and - terminals.

billando said:

Also,...in the current setup where its 4ohm and you said its ok to set to 8ohm will this not affect the sound? (If its supposed to be 4ohm) lots of questions

It will a bit, but the biggest problem by far is that those are PA speakers. Unless it's just to make it slightly more useful in the short term I would still be thinking about changing them.