Pointing the amps into the stage area

TheBigDipper

Just musing on a few things regarding live sound for the band I'm in - bass, drums, 2x guitar and we all sing. 

For small gigs (100 peeps in a pub) where only vocals go through the PA, has anyone ever tried having the bass amp pointing at the audience but the guitar amps on the sides, pointing into the band? The idea, apparently, is we get to hear ourselves and don't "beam" at the audience.  

Does it work? Curious, that's all. 

merlin

Point them towards the ceiling. 

ICBM

Yes, it works - but be careful not to point them *too* far into the stage area so they then bleed into the vocal mics. Ideally across the front of the stage and outside the crowd area if you can - I've usually found that to be the most successful.

Pointing them towards the ceiling also works, but you tend to need them mic'ed as well or the sound can get a bit lost out front. (I haven't tried any steeper angle than the Fender tilt-back legs though.) I'm not really a fan of tilting though, it tends to make them very shrill if you're in the beam at close range, so you dial them in too dark which makes them sound worse out front.

It is worth experimenting a lot with physical placement, height and angle though - it's really important and makes a big difference to the mix both onstage and out front.

Cirrus

I've done the sidefill thing with closed back cabs, and yeah it does what you'd expect. With open back cabs it's kind of pointless, since exactly the same amount of sound is coming from the back you just end up phase cancelling and sending a barky, ball-less sound off the front of the stage that's basically as loud anyway.

Danny1969

IMO you want the band to sound reasonably  balanced out front first. So set the amps up so they they are more or less OK with the drums. If you can't hear the amps in that scenario then use a small wedge pointing back at you or some other means of monitoring but you want the audience to get the best sound, not you. 

Speakers have a usable on-axis frequency response. It's not so crucial with a guitar speaker as there's no tweeter or indeed any high frequencies but the best sound is still in front of it, not 90% to the side. 

EricTheWeary

The only person I remember doing this was Joanne Shaw Taylor although when I've looked at video it doesn't seem to be a regular thing so I presume it was due to the acoustics in that particular venue. Her combo was mic'd and Jo had her amp in her right ear, drums behind her and bass in her left ear so I guess she had a decent mix. Plus IEMs which she constantly fiddled with. Most of my gigs were played on a backline plus vocal PA basis. If you have a wireless system (or even just a long cable or use a looper) you can stand in front of the band at soundcheck. You then have to mentally make yourself a sound engineer and not just decide that the guitar needs to be louder. It can be an alarming exercise! 

TheBigDipper

Well, the reason I'm even thinking about this is the singer/bandleader has his amp on the floor and thinks the reason I'm not always audible is because I'm too quiet. I'm the lead guitarist, BTW, and he's the rhythm player. Tele into AC15. 

IMHO, he  - and the bass player, who's amp is positioned next to him - are both too loud but unaware of it as the sound flies past their ankles out into the audience. We're all fairly able to hear ourselves (and each other) onstage, but I'm unwilling to turn up and make things worse just to make a point. If I turn up to their levels, there will be no audible vocals. So I'm usually playing fills and ornamentation that no-one offstage can hear and hitting a big vilume boost for solos that then jump out. 

I generally put my amp onto a chair or stand so I can hear myself better. 

We're an old-school primitive live act - backline, un-mic'd drums, generally no wedges and only vocals through the PA. we don't play many gigs as we're a writing and recording band. 

Any suggestions that can help me persuade them to change will be gratefully accepted. Ta! :-) 

shufflebeat

TheBigDipper said:

IMHO, he  - and the bass player, who's amp is positioned next to him - are both too loud but unaware of it as the sound flies past their ankles out into the audience. We're all fairly able to hear ourselves (and each other) onstage, but I'm unwilling to turn up and make things worse just to make a point. If I turn up to their levels, there will be no audible vocals.

...I generally put my amp onto a chair or stand so I can hear myself better. 

This is the correct approach.

Barney

I keep saying check out deeflexx but nobody seems to listen ...it will solve your problems ...a bit expensive but well worth it in my opinion 

shufflebeat

Further to previous.

It's difficult sometimes to get across to players how their onstage habits come across in the room. Generally, not always, audiences are neither on your side nor actively hostile. They are wrapped up in their own dramas but willing to engage with a band and each other if it looks like a good invitation.

Players who get this can capture an audience in seconds and retain their attention indefinitely. Those who don't manage to gain this insight and behave accordingly will always be playing to friends and family.

This is not about music, of course, it's about group dynamics but it's as true for black metal as it is for K-Pop.

Video your gigs, watch them individually and make notes. Compare notes. The aim is not to critique each others' playing but to assess the overall presentation.

It may be a waste of time but that in itself is good information.

shufflebeat

Barney said:

I keep saying check out deeflexx but nobody seems to listen ...it will solve your problems ...a bit expensive but well worth it in my opinion 

That looks interesting, unfortunately only about £50 interesting rather than £300 and useful in very specific and limited circumstances.

Judging the situation I reckon the band would be difficult to persuade to spend big to solve a problem they don't think exists. If they did there are much cheaper solutions.

The ads suggest this works on bass. If it did it would revolutionise studio acoustics - it hasn't.

thomasw88

stick a mic on your amp.  don't need much coming through the pa, but it gives a better sound for guitar amps to get a bit of spread through the pa speakers anyway.
There's no reason just to put vocals through the pa unless you don't have enough channels on the desk.  It takes a couple of minutes to set up and will make your band sound better.

Also is your amp on the floor? If it is, then raise it off the floor as it will improve your onstage sound alot.

ICBM

TheBigDipper said:

Well, the reason I'm even thinking about this is the singer/bandleader has his amp on the floor and thinks the reason I'm not always audible is because I'm too quiet. I'm the lead guitarist, BTW, and he's the rhythm player. Tele into AC15. 

IMHO, he  - and the bass player, who's amp is positioned next to him - are both too loud but unaware of it as the sound flies past their ankles out into the audience. We're all fairly able to hear ourselves (and each other) onstage, but I'm unwilling to turn up and make things worse just to make a point. If I turn up to their levels, there will be no audible vocals. So I'm usually playing fills and ornamentation that no-one offstage can hear and hitting a big vilume boost for solos that then jump out. 

I generally put my amp onto a chair or stand so I can hear myself better. 

We're an old-school primitive live act - backline, un-mic'd drums, generally no wedges and only vocals through the PA. we don't play many gigs as we're a writing and recording band. 

Any suggestions that can help me persuade them to change will be gratefully accepted. Ta! :-) 

You really do need the other guitarist to get his amp up off the floor. The bassist, not - bass amps do sound better coupled to the floor - but it still might be better not pointing directly out front, bass speakers are directional too, just less than guitar ones. When I'm playing bass I aim mine in the general direction of the drummer and the guitarist . (Both of them like that, by the way .)

The natural mix improves massively when you can get the guitar amps decoupled from the floor so they're not fighting the bass amp over the fundamentals - it helps stop volume wars because you can now hear both instruments properly even if one is louder than the other - not to mention largely fixing the problem of the guitar amp being inaudible to its own player.

He may not want to tilt it because the resulting increase in treble will be disconcerting to him - although that may also help the overall mix, if he then turns it down - but raising it to about waist height and pointing it slightly sideways so it's not aimed directly out into the audience should help.

Barney

shufflebeat said:

Barney said:

I keep saying check out deeflexx but nobody seems to listen ...it will solve your problems ...a bit expensive but well worth it in my opinion 

That looks interesting, unfortunately only about £50 interesting rather than £300 and useful in very specific and limited circumstances.

Judging the situation I reckon the band would be difficult to persuade to spend big to solve a problem they don't think exists. If they did there are much cheaper solutions.

The ads suggest this works on bass. If it did it would revolutionise studio acoustics - it hasn't.

The Cora version is about £160 I think ....I know they are expensive for what the are ..but a lot of us buy FX pedals for that price then throw them into the box ....but yeah expensive but worth every penny ...I have experimented with some of the lads out of the band and it definitely makes a difference ...plus it stops the beaming that is the problem we all seem to have ....I know you can get diffusers but they really alter the sound 
  

Lebarque

Barney said:

shufflebeat said:

Barney said:

I keep saying check out deeflexx but nobody seems to listen ...it will solve your problems ...a bit expensive but well worth it in my opinion 

That looks interesting, unfortunately only about £50 interesting rather than £300 and useful in very specific and limited circumstances.

Judging the situation I reckon the band would be difficult to persuade to spend big to solve a problem they don't think exists. If they did there are much cheaper solutions.

The ads suggest this works on bass. If it did it would revolutionise studio acoustics - it hasn't.

The Cora version is about £160 I think ....I know they are expensive for what the are ..but a lot of us buy FX pedals for that price then throw them into the box ....but yeah expensive but worth every penny ...I have experimented with some of the lads out of the band and it definitely makes a difference ...plus it stops the beaming that is the problem we all seem to have ....I know you can get diffusers but they really alter the sound 
  

Do they fold down or anything, @Barney ? Looks like a PITA to transport otherwise.

Barney

Lebarque said:

Barney said:

shufflebeat said:

Barney said:

I keep saying check out deeflexx but nobody seems to listen ...it will solve your problems ...a bit expensive but well worth it in my opinion 

That looks interesting, unfortunately only about £50 interesting rather than £300 and useful in very specific and limited circumstances.

Judging the situation I reckon the band would be difficult to persuade to spend big to solve a problem they don't think exists. If they did there are much cheaper solutions.

The ads suggest this works on bass. If it did it would revolutionise studio acoustics - it hasn't.

The Cora version is about £160 I think ....I know they are expensive for what the are ..but a lot of us buy FX pedals for that price then throw them into the box ....but yeah expensive but worth every penny ...I have experimented with some of the lads out of the band and it definitely makes a difference ...plus it stops the beaming that is the problem we all seem to have ....I know you can get diffusers but they really alter the sound 
  

Do they fold down or anything, @Barney ? Looks like a PITA to transport otherwise.

No ..that's the only thing ..but they won't break they are made out of the same thing as jet windows the guy told me 

ESBlonde

TheBigDipper said:

Any suggestions that can help me persuade them to change will be gratefully accepted. Ta! :-) 

Record a gig from out front, a small digital recorder or phone.
listen back to the mix afterwards then play it at the next rehearsal to support your point of view.

koneguitarist

I switched to small amps after a problem with beaming, I was using a 25/50 Marshall 1x12 combo unfortunately even though it was quite a distance away it was pointed straight at sound guy, who promptly took me out of PA completely. Anyone off to either side couldn’t hear me at all, so I used small wattage amps ever since, only used bigger amps for small gigs. 

ICBM

koneguitarist said:

I switched to small amps after a problem with beaming, I was using a 25/50 Marshall 1x12 combo unfortunately even though it was quite a distance away it was pointed straight at sound guy, who promptly took me out of PA completely. Anyone off to either side couldn’t hear me at all, so I used small wattage amps ever since, only used bigger amps for small gigs. 

It's always *most* important to make sure your amp is not pointing at the soundman .

I once played a festival gig where were we had been asked to share backline with the band before or after where possible to minimise changeover times - I had my Mesa 1x12" combo, and I thought letting the previous band use it would be a good opportunity to see how it sounded out front. Fifty yards back next to the sound desk, I was directly in line with it and I could hear it clearly over the top of the PA. Five feet to the side, I couldn't hear it at all other than in the mix. Luckily, the soundman was about five feet the other side of the beam. That taught me a lot about beamy amps and making sure they're aimed in the right direction!

roberty

The worst thing you can do is point your speakers at the back of your knees imo. You'll end up with too much volume and too much treble (although the treble may not be an issue if the amp is unmic'd and most of the audience are off axis)

JMP220478

hire an engineer or ask a respected muso  from another band to give an honest appraisal of your live sound - look for constructive feedback - recording it and reviewing as a band is also a useful exercise - good luck