Hardwood tops

Tannin

Talk me through hardwood tops please. Assume I know nothing at all about them. (That won't be too far from the truth.) 

By "hardwood top" I mean mahogany, Koa, Blackwood and similar. Also relevant are the "quasi-hardwoods" like Yew and Huon Pine - technically softwoods but similar weight, strength, and hardness to typical hardwoods, presumably similar in sound too.

I understand that hardwood-top guitars are a bit quieter. 

What I don't understand is how they differ tonally from the more standard tops.

I am familiar with the common softwood top timbers and and a clear notion of the way they sound and the differences between them (Cedar, Englemann Spruce, European Spruce, Sitka Spruce, Red  Spruce aka :Adirondack". Of those my favourite is cedar, followed by Sitka, my least favourite is Red Spruce.

(I do own a Huon Pine top guitar, one of the "hardwood softwoods" theoretically somewhat similar to mahogany, but I don't know if that one guitar is a useful guide to hard tops in general.)

So who owns one, and what observations would you make about it?

WezV

Just a note on terminology.  Hardwood and softwood refer to the biological structure of a tree connected to species/genus, not its measurable hardness.  Hard wood and soft wood would be descriptions of it's hardness. 

So Huon Pine would be a hard wood softwood, and balsa would be a soft wood hardwood.

I'm also interested in this discussion as I plan on making another acoustic this year.  I have two sets of lovely English walnut and was tempted to do a matching top and back acoustic built with all UK grown woods

bertie

not liked any mahogany topped acoustic Ive ever played

Tannin

WezV said:

Just a note on terminology.  Hardwood and softwood refer to the biological structure of a tree connected to species/genus, not its measurable hardness.  Hard wood and soft wood would be descriptions of it's hardness. 

So Huon Pine would be a hard wood softwood, and balsa would be a soft wood hardwood.

I'm also interested in this discussion as I plan on making another acoustic this year.  I have two sets of lovely English walnut and was tempted to do a matching top and back acoustic built with all UK grown woods

Indeed. That is why I used the prefix "quasi-".

This is my interest too, WezV. I am considering ordering a Brook in July. Seeing as (if I go ahead) it will be my one and only British guitar, I'd like it to be made from all-native timbers. The UK has lots of lovely back and neck timbers, but finding a suitable top is a bit of a challenge. I'm wondering how I would like a guitar with a hardwood or quasi-hardwood top - yew, walnut, oak, cherry, or etc. If pushed, I could go to European Spruce for the top, but let's explore the native options first. 

Mellish

I'm pretty sure all my acoustic guitars from about 1970 to present have all been Sitka topped.

Prior to that, there was one from Woolworths (that being my first) and a few out of my mother's club book. Lord alone knows what top woods *they* had!

 

thomasross20

Haha  
I think these instruments are very targeted. I will stick to sitka

Gandalph

I would say that they really do need a lot more ' 'playing in' time than spruce, etc.
 But once they have been they can really shine. 

Plenty can't be arsed with doing that and I can't blame them. Each to their own.

For anyone looking to add one to their collection I'd suggest getting a good used one that's already been played...a lot.

A good all mahogany can sound really warm, woody and focused.

That's to my ears anyway. The next fella might equate that as dull, lifeless, subdued, etc. 

I personally love a good hog top. Arguably, the best guitar I've ever played, and this was only recently, was an all mahogany 1944 Gibson LG-2. It was pricey though and the bridge spacing was too tight but wow...it sounded bloody amazing. 

bermudianbrit

I've played a few all mahogany guitars from well respected makers. They always just sounded a bit dull and lifeless to me - no sparkle, no life. It was almost like I was playing with dead strings or something. I get it if you want very middy blues tone - think 1930s fingerstyle blues vibes, but otherwise...nah.

Mellish

Actually, @Gandalph has reminded me.

I *have* played a guitar with a hog top, a Taylor GS Mini in PMT.
Lovely tone, and I would've bought it, had I been looking. 
But it's made me think. I'll have to seek out acoustics with different top woods.

 

drofluf

Tannin said:

WezV said:

Just a note on terminology.  Hardwood and softwood refer to the biological structure of a tree connected to species/genus, not its measurable hardness.  Hard wood and soft wood would be descriptions of it's hardness. 

So Huon Pine would be a hard wood softwood, and balsa would be a soft wood hardwood.

I'm also interested in this discussion as I plan on making another acoustic this year.  I have two sets of lovely English walnut and was tempted to do a matching top and back acoustic built with all UK grown woods

Indeed. That is why I used the prefix "quasi-".

This is my interest too, WezV. I am considering ordering a Brook in July. Seeing as (if I go ahead) it will be my one and only British guitar, I'd like it to be made from all-native timbers. The UK has lots of lovely back and neck timbers, but finding a suitable top is a bit of a challenge. I'm wondering how I would like a guitar with a hardwood or quasi-hardwood top - yew, walnut, oak, cherry, or etc. If pushed, I could go to European Spruce for the top, but let's explore the native options first. 

Talk to Simon and Andy - I'm sure they'd be happy to advise on what will work.

Whilst I like the idea of a "Full English" guitar if I were spending that amount though I wouldn't want to make a compromise on the sound for it to follow a "theme".

bertie

drofluf said:

Tannin said:

WezV said:

Just a note on terminology.  Hardwood and softwood refer to the biological structure of a tree connected to species/genus, not its measurable hardness.  Hard wood and soft wood would be descriptions of it's hardness. 

So Huon Pine would be a hard wood softwood, and balsa would be a soft wood hardwood.

I'm also interested in this discussion as I plan on making another acoustic this year.  I have two sets of lovely English walnut and was tempted to do a matching top and back acoustic built with all UK grown woods

Indeed. That is why I used the prefix "quasi-".

This is my interest too, WezV. I am considering ordering a Brook in July. Seeing as (if I go ahead) it will be my one and only British guitar, I'd like it to be made from all-native timbers. The UK has lots of lovely back and neck timbers, but finding a suitable top is a bit of a challenge. I'm wondering how I would like a guitar with a hardwood or quasi-hardwood top - yew, walnut, oak, cherry, or etc. If pushed, I could go to European Spruce for the top, but let's explore the native options first. 

Talk to Simon and Andy - I'm sure they'd be happy to advise on what will work.

Whilst I like the idea of a "Full English" guitar if I were spending that amount though I wouldn't want to make a compromise on the sound for it to follow a "theme".

they use UK woods wherever possible (obvious exceptions) and they always make use of any "fallen" trees around where the workshop is -  

WezV

Tannin said:

This is my interest too, WezV. I am considering ordering a Brook in July. Seeing as (if I go ahead) it will be my one and only British guitar, I'd like it to be made from all-native timbers. The UK has lots of lovely back and neck timbers, but finding a suitable top is a bit of a challenge. I'm wondering how I would like a guitar with a hardwood or quasi-hardwood top - yew, walnut, oak, cherry, or etc. If pushed, I could go to European Spruce for the top, but let's explore the native options first. 

If you can find some UK grown Douglas Fir it may fit the brief well... but generally I would back what others have said and stick to what the builder knows well and recommends 

Tannin

Cheers all. 

drofluf said:

Talk to Simon and Andy - I'm sure they'd be happy to advise on what will work.

Whilst I like the idea of a "Full English" guitar if I were spending that amount though I wouldn't want to make a compromise on the sound for it to follow a "theme".

Yes, that is my thinking mate. I have guitars from a variety of places and like doing that "local theme" thing. (As you know, lovely woods which have some significance in their own right are half the value in a guitar to me.) My current baritone build is all-Tasmanian timbers and we haven't needed to compromise at all - King Billy Pine is a noted top softwood often said to be cedar-like in its tone. 

With this British one, I'm aiming for a quiet play-at-night guitar, one that doesn't disturb Mrs Tannin too much. So a small body makes sense (parlour or single-0), and possibly a hardwood top because - within reason - a drop in volume will be welcome  so long as we retain good tone and responsiveness.  My best play-at-night guitar right now in the Cole Clark Angel with the Huon Pine top. It is easily the quietest one, but lovely to play. However I don't want too draw to many conclusions from a sample of one.

Anyway, as you say, getting a good musical result has to be priority #1.

Given that, I would like to have:

(1) All native timbers.
(2) Failing that, a mix of native and introduced but long-established timbers. (Some surprises here. I understand that European Walnut, although often called "English Walnut" is in fact introduced! London Plane certainly is. But - oh! - what a great looker it is!)
(3) Failing that, I could go to nearby places, for example with European Spruce.  
(4) And failing that, I could just say "bugger it, cedar makes a lovely top, let's use some cedar from Canada and forget about the all-British theme".

Kilgore

I've got a cheap Mahogany Sigma 000.
I would describe it as woody, mellow and creamy( whatever that means!)not a lot of treble I can appreciate that some would describe it as muddy.

I use it almost exclusively for finger picked blues. The tops do take time to open up. I string it with 80/20s which adds just a bit more zing to the trebles to my ears.

drofluf

bertie said:

<snip>

they use UK woods wherever possible (obvious exceptions) and they always make use of any "fallen" trees around where the workshop is -  

Think that's true for the back and sides - mine has some local Walnut - but the necks are generally mahogany and looking at the news section of their website my impression I that tops are generally not UK native woods.

Tannin

WezV said:

If you can find some UK grown Douglas Fir it may fit the brief well... but generally I would back what others have said and stick to what the builder knows well and recommends 

I believe that there is also UK-grown Western Red Cedar, and there is certainly Norway Pine (aka Scots Pine/ European Redwood) albeit not a noted tonewood  - but yes, I will certainly be going with something the builder knows and likes. The way I look at it, if you go to a restaurant where the chef is famous for his fish and recommends the flounder, you are stupid if you order steak.

Having said that, there are two particular woods which seem to me to be the iconic British timbers. First, oak - think Roman bridges, Tudor mansions, Nelson's wooden walls, the timbers of the Cutty Sark -oak is intrinsic to British history and I can't imagine Britian without oak. Second, yew - the English longbow utterly dominates the history of the Middle Ages (Crecy, Agincourt, Poitiers, all those Civil War and Scottish battles) and that means yew. 

Anyway, I want to use those two timbers. There are usually four different main timbers in an acoustic guitar (plus odds and ends like bindings and headstock veneer) - top, back and sides, neck, fretboard. These four define the guitar, anything ese is largely decoration. And I would like two of those four - any two - to be oak and yew.

That leaves two others .... 

MSedg

I’ve had two all-mahogany guitars. One was a 1948 Martin 0-15, the other (which I still have) is an Atkin Dustbowl 00. Maybe I’ve been lucky but neither really sounded particularly muted or quiet. Definitely traded off some sparkle at the top end for a more “woody”, mid-heavy tonality, but in both cases any lack of treble was remedied a bit by being small-bodied. 

I have also played several old Gibsons which were all hog (can’t remember exact years but 1950s) LG-0s, and a couple of 60s ones, and didn’t like any of them particularly. 

So I guess like anything - good ones and bad ones available.

Kalimna

You may find it useful to have a look at Turnstone Guitars all native acoustics. A price bracket above Brook, but stunning instruments to play and listen to. There will be no compromise in their construction, whatever the timber.
From memory, Rosie has used yew, WRC and Douglas Fir for topwood. Bog oak fr B&S, ash and sycamore for neck. 

ICBM

I have a mahogany-top parlour. It’s not quiet *at all*, in fact it’s probably the loudest parlour I’ve ever played. I’ve never heard that they’re particularly quiet before either.

The tone difference is as you would expect from a harder wood - tighter, more midrangy and punchy, with a noticeable almost metallic ring to it. It doesn’t have anything like the depth or softness of my spruce-top Dreadnought, but it’s hard to say how much is down to the wood and how much the size.

One thing that is different about it is that the top is *extremely* lightly braced - minimal, almost to the point that I don’t think it could be done with spruce - because mahogany is inherently stronger. That probably helps with the volume and attack.

bertie

drofluf said:

bertie said:

<snip>

they use UK woods wherever possible (obvious exceptions) and they always make use of any "fallen" trees around where the workshop is -  

Think that's true for the back and sides - mine has some local Walnut - but the necks are generally mahogany and looking at the news section of their website my impression I that tops are generally not UK native woods.

hence the "obvious exceptions"  comment  

mykewright

I think the difficulty will be anything like fir or spruce that's grown in the UK will be "commercially" grown, in other words as quickly as possible. What you ideally want for a top is something slow grown with the tree rings closer together for maximum strength which would equal thinnest top and lightest bracing. I'm sure Simon and Andy will guide you well.