Larrivee guitars are rubbish

thomasross20

Am I right in saying @bertie / other that Brook neck is same as Larrivee? I might be in London end of June so might stop off at Coda to try them .. TBD..

bertie

thomasross20 said:

Am I right in saying @bertie / other that Brook neck is same as Larrivee? I might be in London end of June so might stop off at Coda to try them .. TBD..

not that I remember, the Larry's I tried were very Taylor-esque, maybe a tad larger. The Brook is quite flat and a smidge wider

thomasross20

Aha, good to know. Maybe I'll love it... Time to try these bad boys, I hope, in June...

ditchboy

TheOtherDennis said:

Well don't forget mine, it's still available...;-)

Remind me of the price Dennis : - )

TheOtherDennis

A nice round grand

thomasross20

Tried another OM-05 today and while stunning, I find I do prefer the satin models. In fact I also prefer sapele as a tonewood as it's that bit stiffer than mahogany so a touch more bass and shimmer (imo, though the mahogany does have slightly more of that syrupy sound, which is lovely). When I AB'd my OM-02 Vs a £5k sinker mahogany custom shop Martin, they were on par - the bass from the scallopped Martin was same as that of my sapele OM-02 with no scalloping. So I think if going for mahogany again in future I'd be getting a scallopped guitar.

I don't mind the low bass on my mahogany P-03 (which sounds AMAZING btw, the compression when hit hard sounds great - blues box) as it sort of goes with that kind of guitar (though naturally I now wonder about sapele / Bhilwara parlour!). 

I would love to try one of their 12 fret rosewood options. The Tommy Emmanuel model looks cool but I'm not into big bodies. 


I wonder what other kinds of mahogany there are. I heard Cuban is good... @Tannin I will have to find your post re wood stiffness, weight etc comparisons as would really love to see that for the different kinds of mahogany guitar. Sapele, for me, really is a stunning tonewood. 

As an aside, I'm undecided on Adirondack tops. That custom Martin sounded great with it but it was also like a pneumatic drill. The lightest touch set it off - very loud and resonant. Sitka I think (maybe wrongly, unsure) is more dynamic (quiet, loud). 

earwighoney

thomasross20 said:

Tried another OM-05 today and while stunning, I find I do prefer the satin models. In fact I also prefer sapele as a tonewood as it's that bit stiffer than mahogany so a touch more bass and shimmer (imo, though the mahogany does have slightly more of that syrupy sound, which is lovely). When I AB'd my OM-02 Vs a £5k sinker mahogany custom shop Martin, they were on par - the bass from the scallopped Martin was same as that of my sapele OM-02 with no scalloping. So I think if going for mahogany again in future I'd be getting a scallopped guitar.

I don't mind the low bass on my mahogany P-03 (which sounds AMAZING btw, the compression when hit hard sounds great - blues box) as it sort of goes with that kind of guitar (though naturally I now wonder about sapele / Bhilwara parlour!). 

I would love to try one of their 12 fret rosewood options. The Tommy Emmanuel model looks cool but I'm not into big bodies. 


I wonder what other kinds of mahogany there are. I heard Cuban is good... @Tannin I will have to find your post re wood stiffness, weight etc comparisons as would really love to see that for the different kinds of mahogany guitar. Sapele, for me, really is a stunning tonewood. 

As an aside, I'm undecided on Adirondack tops. That custom Martin sounded great with it but it was also like a pneumatic drill. The lightest touch set it off - very loud and resonant. Sitka I think (maybe wrongly, unsure) is more dynamic (quiet, loud). 

Cuban is a bit like Sapele, more bass and treble than Honduran, but I don't think it's worth the surcharge when Sapele is comparatively cheap. IMO try a Quilted Sapele if you get the chance. Sounds much the same as the standard one but it looks really cool! 

Adirondack/Red Spruce guitars take a long time to break in, and I think they are better for bluegrass style instruments. I have a number of different guitars with different spruce soundboards but it's the one I seem to reach for the least. 

thomasross20

Ooooh quilted sapele!! I would love to try a 'boutique" maker's sapele guitar (saying that... My 20 year old OM02 I have preferred to some very high end guitars). 

--> so you reckon Cuban is slightly better than sapele (both harder than mahogany) but not worth the extra. Got it.

I wonder if the om05 were satin, I'd have thought differently. Btw I should add that I feel sapele has the wider tonal frequency range (without the mahogany hump - and I like no hump as it makes it even MORE balanced) and suits fingerstyle better, but mahogany strummed had a nicer syrupy/meldy sound, with less bass definition. Those "cheap OM02s" imo are some of Larrivee's best guitars. 

That's interesting re the Adirondack of yours @earwighoney ... What guitars do you have and what do you reach for the most? 

I'm learning a lot about what I prefer in an acoustic.. but ultimately it still always comes down to trying the magic one in person.

Btw again re sapele, I remember trying all the GS Mini guitars some years ago and the wood combo I liked best? Sitka + sapele. 

Per above I do think mahogany has a tad less bass than sapele but the effect is amplified due to the humped mid range which imo masks it further. Still fine guitars!! The oo40 with mahogany B&S and scalloped bracing actually sounds good (have never tried one.. might like it.. it may just have been that particular scalloped OM40 I didn't get on with). 

Both OM-05s I've now played have sounded richer in the mid range than the OM02. I'm not sure if that's down to a difference in sound due to the gloss (not keen on gloss feel) or the higher grade tonewoods. I suspect both. 

tomjax

Roger Bucknall of fylde guitars seems to be a big fan of sapele for guitar bodies.

earwighoney

thomasross20 said:

Ooooh quilted sapele!! I would love to try a 'boutique" maker's sapele guitar (saying that... My 20 year old OM02 I have preferred to some very high end guitars). 

--> so you reckon Cuban is slightly better than sapele (both harder than mahogany) but not worth the extra. Got it.

I wonder if the om05 were satin, I'd have thought differently. Btw I should add that I feel sapele has the wider tonal frequency range (without the mahogany hump - and I like no hump as it makes it even MORE balanced) and suits fingerstyle better, but mahogany strummed had a nicer syrupy/meldy sound, with less bass definition. Those "cheap OM02s" imo are some of Larrivee's best guitars. 

That's interesting re the Adirondack of yours @earwighoney ... What guitars do you have and what do you reach for the most? 

I'm learning a lot about what I prefer in an acoustic.. but ultimately it still always comes down to trying the magic one in person.

Btw again re sapele, I remember trying all the GS Mini guitars some years ago and the wood combo I liked best? Sitka + sapele. 

Per above I do think mahogany has a tad less bass than sapele but the effect is amplified due to the humped mid range which imo masks it further. Still fine guitars!! The oo40 with mahogany B&S and scalloped bracing actually sounds good (have never tried one.. might like it.. it may just have been that particular scalloped OM40 I didn't get on with). 

Both OM-05s I've now played have sounded richer in the mid range than the OM02. I'm not sure if that's down to a difference in sound due to the gloss (not keen on gloss feel) or the higher grade tonewoods. I suspect both. 

Cuban is special stuff for sure, but it's like the Brazilian Rosewood of the Mahogany world.  Fairly rare and elusive, but I don't think it's worth the trouble trying to source it.  I think the different types of mahogany are pretty close to each other. 

My Guild 12 has Sapele back and sides. It sounds glorious. 

I've played a few luthier guitars with Sapele back and sides, one was a Redwood/Quilted Sapele (Propsom Guitars? It was in TAMCO). Glorious instrument. 

I have an Eastman E10-00, early model with 25 year old Adirondack soundboard from Old Standard, who is the supplier to Collings.  

My no.1 guitar is a Stanford PS-OM10. I don't know much about this brand, but I think it's a MIC version of an old Furch model the OM-32. Sitka Spruce over some kind of Mahogany (maybe African?). It's the only one I write music on.  Even though it was the least I spent on a guitar and spent thousands on instruments with a lot more complex deeper richer sound, the Stanford is the one that suits my way of playing the most.

thomasross20

I'll have to check Fylde out...

Wow some amazing guitars! 
African mahogany is a term sometimes used to describe sapele, isn't it? Damn... I really love that tonewood. 

Mellish

@thomasross20 ; don't put your Virtuoso on any of your satin finish guitars. It'll turn the finish shiny, and you'll be stuck with it. 

 

thomasross20

What's virtuouso, you referring to body slapping lol? Btw you're right, satin does get a shine after a while. I think gloss guitars, it does affect the sound, I've been reading about it. In any case, bed time lol

Mellish

^  

Tannin

thomasross20 said:

As an aside, I'm undecided on Adirondack tops. That custom Martin sounded great with it but it was also like a pneumatic drill. The lightest touch set it off - very loud and resonant. Sitka I think (maybe wrongly, unsure) is more dynamic (quiet, loud). 

I'm with you and @earwighoney on the Red Spruce tops. For years I was told how wonderful they were, simply the best, and now that I finally own one ... I don't like it. It has a wonderful clear ringing tone on the treble notes which nothing else quite matches, but it's just such a beast to play. It has a savage attack and really only sounds good when I play it with my fingertips. As soon as I start adding a little nail it goes to crap, and I can only do upstrokes - downstrokes (which can only be done with the back of the nails) are harsh and unpleasant.

OK, I'm hyperventilating. It's a good guitar in its own way, different to anything else I own, and really comes into its own for blues (though I'm not much of a blues player), but in the end it's not for me. 

My favourite top material is cedar - the opposite extreme - and I'm looking forward to the new baritone with a King Billy Pine top (said to be very like cedar). And having tried a variety of spruces - Englemann, European, Sitka, and Red - my favourite is good old fashioned Sitka. I don't think it got to be far and away the most popular spruce for guitars by accident. 

Back to Red Spruce, I reckon I might like it better on a larger guitar, say a dreadnought or jumbo. Not convinced on this 00.

Tannin

thomasross20 said:

I wonder what other kinds of mahogany there are. I heard Cuban is good... @Tannin I will have to find your post re wood stiffness, weight etc comparisons as would really love to see that for the different kinds of mahogany guitar. Sapele, for me, really is a stunning tonewood. 
 

Your wish is my command, oh Master, (snaps fingers) Let there be pink smoke and many houris. 

Listed below are common (and some uncommon) "all-rounder" timbers used for back and sides but also suitable for tops. Most (all?) are also good neck timbers. 

It is very rare to see anything lighter than Spanish Cypress used for back and sides (e.g., spruce) and equally rare to see anything much heavier than Rock Maple used for a top.

The raw numbers for average density, Janka hardness and modulus of elasticity are pretty meaningless to most people, especially as they are commonly provided in at least three different units that I am aware of (two metric and one imperial). For this reason I like to express them as percentages relative to some well-known timber, in this case Honduran Mahogany. From this we can see at a glance that (for example) Sipo is 8% heavier than mahogany, 31% harder, and 16% "stronger". (I'm using modulus of elasticity as a proxy for strength, which is only half-true.) 

 Format is density (hardness) "strength".

Spanish Cypress 0.91 (0.62) 0.52

Huon Pine 0.95 (1.02) 0.92

Queensland Maple 0.95 (0.90) 1.08

London Plane 0.95 (1.04) 0.88

Silky Oak 1.00 (0.98) 0.79

Honduran Mahogany 1.00 (1.00) 1.00

Cuban Mahogany 1.02 (1.02) 0.93

European Cherry 1.02 (1.27) 1.05

Koa 1.03 (1.29) 1.03

Sipo 1.08 (1.31) 1.16

Black Walnut 1.08 (1.12) 1.15

Southern Sassafras 1.05 (1.21) 1.25

Myrtle Beech 1.06 (1.45) 1.14

Oregon Myrtle 1.08 (1.41) 0.84

Khaya 1.08 (1.18) 1.05

Blackwood 1.08 (1.29) 1.47

Claro Walnut 1.08 (1.25) 1.15

Common Walnut 1.08 (1.35) 1.07

Celery-top Pine 1.09 (1.12) 1.19

European Maple 1.09 (1.12) 1.05

Sapele 1.14 (1.56) 1.05

European Yew 1.14 (1.68) 1.01

European Oak 1.14 (1.24) 1.05

Rock Maple 1.19 1.60 1.25

As mentioned last time, these are average figures, mostly from the very useful on-line Wood Database. Real wood varies a lot, and some of the listed figures in the database (none of them included above) look rather weird and ought to be double-checked by someone with the appropriate expertise (i.e., not me). TWD's numbers for Red Spruce look strange and for a couple of the Australian timbers downright weird. (E.g., Spotted Gum softer than Blue Gum? Not a chance. Not even close, and it goes through drill bits the way a drunk at a bar goes through a bowl of salted nuts.) 

Really, really rough approximation: timbers that are hard for their weight (e.g., Myrtle Beech, Sapele, Rock Maple) have crisp top ends. Timbers which are soft for their weight (Spanish Cypress, Queensland Maple, Honduran and Cuban Mahogany tend to have a more rounded, softer tone. (I have never played a Spanish Cypress guitar, nor a Cuban Mahogany one - I would be very interested to do so and see if they behave as I expect.)

guitarjack66

Tannin said:

thomasross20 said:

As an aside, I'm undecided on Adirondack tops. That custom Martin sounded great with it but it was also like a pneumatic drill. The lightest touch set it off - very loud and resonant. Sitka I think (maybe wrongly, unsure) is more dynamic (quiet, loud). 

I'm with you and @earwighoney on the Red Spruce tops. For years I was told how wonderful they were, simply the best, and now that I finally own one ... I don't like it. It has a wonderful clear ringing tone on the treble notes which nothing else quite matches, but it's just such a beast to play. It has a savage attack and really only sounds good when I play it with my fingertips. As soon as I start adding a little nail it goes to crap, and I can only do upstrokes - downstrokes (which can only be done with the back of the nails) are harsh and unpleasant.

OK, I'm hyperventilating. It's a good guitar in its own way, different to anything else I own, and really comes into its own for blues (though I'm not much of a blues player), but in the end it's not for me. 

My favourite top material is cedar - the opposite extreme - and I'm looking forward to the new baritone with a King Billy Pine top (said to be very like cedar). And having tried a variety of spruces - Englemann, European, Sitka, and Red - my favourite is good old fashioned Sitka. I don't think it got to be far and away the most popular spruce for guitars by accident. 

Back to Red Spruce, I reckon I might like it better on a larger guitar, say a dreadnought or jumbo. Not convinced on this 00.

@Tannin. You have a 00 model? I dont remember seeing it in your guitar family photos? I seem to remember larger bodied guitars but not any smaller ones in your photos?

Tannin

Yes @guitarjack66, two of them actually. The one I mentioned is a Guild 



The other was made by local Hobart luthier Paul Mineur. 



"00" = "concert size" = various other terms for the same thing. An 808 is the same except deep-bodied like a dreadnought.

thomasross20

@Tannin brilliant stuff re the numbers. Interesting... The numbers for sapele are all higher than walnut yet again I prefer sapele. Btw like you, I also like Queensland maple. You mention how hardness translates to crisp top end, I wonder what effects density and strength have on the sound.. 

That Paul Mineur looks amazing. Glad to hear it's not just me re Adirondack. Saying that, I've only played that one and it was stunning, but maybe "too powerful" - TBD. 

Re gloss/no gloss, I like the way a satin finish feels. Jean Larrivee has been quoted as saying he prefers the gloss sound as it makes it that touch more glassy (some may call it rich) and that satin gives a more woody tone. I agree with that 100%.

thomasross20

Again also goes to show how important it is to try a guitar before buying (imo). The first om05 I tried I thought was great other than intonation issue and I recall I didn't mind the gloss finish.. but this one I didn't get on with at all. 

In a similar vein I tried a rosewood Larrivee some months ago that I thought was "meh" but the same model popped up a short time ago and this one had a mojo.