Tonight's IEM experience

andyg_prs

I borrowed a Shure PSM200 / SE215 for tonight's rehearsal with the rock covers band.  I started with just a low amount of guitar from my CaptorX and hearing the band (minus the other guitarist who couldn't attend the first hour) from whatever leaked through the IEMs.  Was good to hear my guitar clearly, but needed more of the band.  

I got a feed of the mix of the drums / bass / vocals / BVs into the second input on the PSM200.  Only bass drum and toms were mic'd on the drums.  Not too bad but certainly didn't sound natural.  Of course, at a gig, I don't know what kind of mix I'd get through the IEMs.

Second guitarist joined.  Similar but was pleased to use my IEMs to up my guitar in my ears.

I didn't really feel like I could hear the band clearly though...I felt insulated from the band....on one song, I just didn't feel my timing was perfect - due to the IEMs.....and on another song, I came in early for my solo....I was oblivious, and I've never done that.....ever....

That's probably why people talk about mini mixing desks and ambient mics etc...but that's really not practical for this band and its infrequent, low level gigs that have something in between a line check and a sound check....

I tried without the IEMs, couldn't hear myself at all, so they went back in.

I also felt with the IEMs that I lost the subtely between my lower and higher gain sounds.....things sounded more similar.

Now frankly, IEMs are mainly for this one, roudy band.  And we don't gig that often.  And tbh, I think I managed to get the sound I needed through the on stage wedge.....it's mainly in the rehearsal room where I can't hear a thing....

So, I'm really not sure if I go the IEM route or not.  I also wondered if there are other wireless systems where you can control the mix of the audio feeding into the transmitter at the receiver?

I could change the mix on the transmitter but only the volume on the receiver.

Oh, I also tried a wired IEM amp thing.  Plugged in the same XLR inputs (my guitar, general mix).  I couldn't get on with being wired in that way.....and mixing of the different audio sources could only be done by having one in one ear, one in the other and panning left to right.....so dumped that.

Sorry for the disorganised verbage....but interested in what people think...and particular that bit about systems that allow you to control the mix of separate audio source at the receiver? To be clear, for my example, I want to hear the Bandmix in both ears and my guitar in both ears, but I want to be able to tweak the relative volume with a knob on the receiver. 

Thanks!
Andy 

Stratavarious

We have an ambient mic, just pop one in and mix the full band sound in to counteract the isolated in a bubble effect.   We use a wireless mixer so IEM mix is on ipad or phone though. It has s simple ‘more me’ option for what you are asking,

you can set it up for stereo blending at the IEM amp unit but that eats ups the Auxes.

What mixer are you using?  Comprehensive personal IEM adjustment on the fly is one reason why we use a Soundcraft Ui24r.

andyg_prs

Stratavarious said:

We have an ambient mic, just pop one in and mix the full band sound in to counteract the isolated in a bubble effect. 

What kind of mic and where on stage? In our case, neither guitarist has a cab on stage - but there will be monitor audio, plus the bass amp and drums etc.  Point is though, the sound guy would have to include that ambient mic feed just for my personal mix - which I guess he’d do. 

I just ask for the FoH mix plus ambient?

Stratavarious

We have a loom to the PA and a cheap Shure PG off to the side out front - it.started as it Is good for recording too as we get the room/audience ambience which is what can sound missing. There is also usually an ambient among the drum mic loom we use near the drums that picks up the backline amps we use in small spaces… an overhead basically.  

Sounds like you need a digital mixer with individual app control of all aux levels though if guitars playing ampless though or you will always be needing to call on the sound guy for every adjustment.

Direct to desk and wireless digital mixers go hand in hand IMO.   It eliminates the faff of adjusting levels for everyone before soundchecks and it records and stores the settings for all the different venues we play or ekits vs live drums.  The ‘more me’ control works both ways to adjust the relative level between you and the rest of the mix.  This sounds like what you want, were asking for. 

 https://youtu.be/Kqfh-1HtMB8

Of course if you only play big venues with sound guys and big PAs, they should sort you anyway you want.

Danny1969

Digital desks have wireless control of the mix and the aux sends so players generally control their IEM mix from their phone. The budget one's aren't really ideal because they don't really have enough aux sends for stereo but you can add personal monitor mixers on the cat 5 bus with a lot of them. I use an ME-1 in one band 

An IEM mix in mono where you can't control the levels of the instruments or the panning is going to be pretty bad. Unusable really. A Good IEM stereo mix will sound great and be very revealing in terms of who's playing what ...sometimes too revealing as you really will hear every tiny mistake. 

For ambience I use 2 boundary mics set on the front of the stage. These don't even look like mics and don't require any stands. Again you need 2 because you need the ambience in stereo and correctly panned so sounds to the right of you are louder in your right ear and sounds to your left are louder in your left ear. 

For big gigs we use a splitter rack. We mic everything ourselves into our splitter rack which feeds our digital desk which runs all our ears. Then we just give FOH 2 looms from the splits and a track sheet. This means there's no monitors to set at soundcheck and our IEM feed is consistently high quality. The venues prefer this as it's less hassle for them. If we are doing festivals with other bands then we just use whatever wedges are there but I will still split my vocal and have a feed from my amp into a special pedal I designed on my pedalboard. 

Getting used to IEM's takes time and also some technical thought. It's helpful if you have someone who's experienced with signal flow routing who knows hot to achieve a good IEM mix. When I was running 2020 studios bands who were about to go on tour would block book a live room for a few days just to get the IEM systems set up and saved in the show file. 

So don't dismiss it entirely but it may be for one band who don't gig a lot IEM's are too much  hassle for the level of equipment you have and may create more problems than they solve. 

davros

I've struggled for years in pub bands, where only vocals and keys are going through the PA, to hear my guitar and backing vocals.

Now we use a digital mixer, an RCF M18, which has 6 separate monitor mixes. I put a mic in front of my cab and send that just to my crappy old carlsboro monitor with my own vocals. The rest of my band and FOH just hear the guitar from the cab.

The biggest improvement, though was getting some proper ACS Pro earplugs.

The last couple of gigs with this setup have been so much less stressful and more enjoyable, being able to hear myself and the band clearly without damaging my hearing.

I know this isn't an IEM solution, but works for me.

Rkphilpot

Danny1969 said:

Digital desks have wireless control of the mix and the aux sends so players generally control their IEM mix from their phone. The budget one's aren't really ideal because they don't really have enough aux sends for stereo but you can add personal monitor mixers on the cat 5 bus with a lot of them. I use an ME-1 in one band 

This, we use a Mackie DL1608 and wireless IEMS. The DL1608 has 6 individual monitor outs that with an Ipad can be individually mixed. For ambience, we use an overhead on the drums which picks up some and the three vocal mics on stage pickup enough just to make it feel less like you're in a bubble. It helps if you still have on stage cabs and if you're all using them.
Stick with it, the benefits are well worth it!

jim_cross

davros said:

I've struggled for years in pub bands, where only vocals and keys are going through the PA, to hear my guitar and backing vocals.

Now we use a digital mixer, an RCF M18, which has 6 separate monitor mixes. I put a mic in front of my cab and send that just to my crappy old carlsboro monitor with my own vocals. The rest of my band and FOH just hear the guitar from the cab.

The biggest improvement, though was getting some proper ACS Pro earplugs.

The last couple of gigs with this setup have been so much less stressful and more enjoyable, being able to hear myself and the band clearly without damaging my hearing.

I know this isn't an IEM solution, but works for me.

Have you compared the ACS Pros to many other earplugs? I have both Minnuendo Lossless and Eargasms, both of which get pretty good reviews, but I find I really struggle to hear my guitar with them in and find myself feeling completely isolated from the band.
I'm on the verge of switching to IEMs with the main driver being to protect my hearing. However, it seems like a lot of faff for a band only gigging every couple of months, and also clearly comes with its own challenges

davros

I have used ER20s from various brands for years, but the ACS are a massive improvement. I can actually hear properly.

jim_cross

davros said:

I have used ER20s from various brands for years, but the ACS are a massive improvement. I can actually hear properly.

That's interesting, thanks. Out of interest which level of reduction did you go for? I'm tempted to try a set of the PRO17

davros

Yes, mine are the pro 17s. They were recommended as the flattest attenuation, and good for retaining the highs.

shufflebeat

jim_cross said:

davros said:

I've struggled for years in pub bands, where only vocals and keys are going through the PA, to hear my guitar and backing vocals.

Now we use a digital mixer, an RCF M18, which has 6 separate monitor mixes. I put a mic in front of my cab and send that just to my crappy old carlsboro monitor with my own vocals. The rest of my band and FOH just hear the guitar from the cab.

The biggest improvement, though was getting some proper ACS Pro earplugs.

The last couple of gigs with this setup have been so much less stressful and more enjoyable, being able to hear myself and the band clearly without damaging my hearing.

I know this isn't an IEM solution, but works for me.

Have you compared the ACS Pros to many other earplugs? I have both Minnuendo Lossless and Eargasms, both of which get pretty good reviews, but I find I really struggle to hear my guitar with them in and find myself feeling completely isolated from the band.
I'm on the verge of switching to IEMs with the main driver being to protect my hearing. However, it seems like a lot of faff for a band only gigging every couple of months, and also clearly comes with its own challenges

I use Vic Firth triple flange plugs on gigs where I’m not singing and in between sets when I’m audio-teching. They’re basic but work well, I can hold conversations with others who are usually struggling both to speak and hear.

They come with a handy rubber case for the keyring but lose the connecting string so they don’t get ripped out.

They’re easy to put in/out without specialist tools.

https://vicfirth.com/products/vic-ear-plugs

Evo

I'll support the general feedback here that the more expensive stuff does make a difference when it comes to IEM.

However, as a regular dep guitarist jumping in and out of bands at a moments notice, the biggest difference comes when the band are used to using them. If whoever runs the desk is used to running IEMS then it's like the fog clears, and getting a good mix becomes so much easier. 

It's immediately obvious when somebody just sends their usual wedge EQ/mix to IEMs, everything feels simultaneously too loud but you can't hear it. The isolation never really bothered me, but a helpful tip if you're struggling there is to bring the drum overheads up in your mix. It's not as ideal as an ambient mic, but it helps. 

So, how does this help you?

Truth is, you've got to learn how to use IEMS. Almost all of the issues I hear people complaining about can be solved with patience and perseverance, there's absolutely no reason why an in ear mix can't sound just as good as a wedge. A lot of people buy them, try them a couple of times, then go back to a wedge because it wasn't the magic monitoring solution they were hoping for. 

It's worth noting that one thing people hardly ever say about IEMs is that they couldn't hear themselves. Sometimes they can't hear everything else as well as they'd like, sometimes the mix is off, the isolation issue crops up a lot...but its very rare to get "I couldn't hear myself". Which is one of the most common issues with traditional setups, causing guitarists to sneak back and nudge their amp volume up another notch or two.

Stick with it!

If issues crop up then make a note and try to address them next time. Repeat the process until no more issues, and job done. 

shufflebeat

Evo said:

Truth is, you've got to learn how to use IEMS.

This is a really good post and bears out my own experience.

uberscott

Great post Evo - it definitely takes time to tune the IEM mix so you can hear what you want/need to hear. Like Davros, we use an RCF M18 mixer to handle both FOH and IEM mixes (via the aux outs). Everyone has the RCF app on their phone which they use to dial in their own IEM mix on the fly. 

FWIW, I've been using ACS's ambient IEMs which are vented to allow some (filtered) ambient noise in. I find they let just enough of this noise in so you don't have that isolated feeling, but still filter that enough so I can stand next to the drums and still be fine. 

maltingsaudio

Thought I’d put this here as it’s all about IEMs I assume. Festival tonight I was told band x was just giving me a di from their MacBook. Turns out 4 bands in on an all day festival this band (6 piece)bought all their kit and mics to set up and give me left and right from their mixer so they controlled their own sound and IEMs. Nb 15 minute changeover so trashed that and as I was parachuted into this didn’t know what to expect. So they take 35/40 to set up give me the thumbs up open their channels having set input to 0db stage descends into feedback, their md doesn’t think anything’s wrong as he’s got his ears in and when he does blames me! 10 minutes later after discussions realises his vocal mics are way over winds them back feedback gone proceed with sound check. Vocals way too high in the mix can’t hear the rest of the instruments properly. ( Wonder how they think they sound at gigs if this is their standard patch) MD then takes his ears out grabs his iPad walks out the front mixes band acceptably , show proceeds sounds ok except vocals too dry in the mix. Once we’d sorted the feedback problem I just sat at front of house watching it unfold as all I could do was waggle their left and right into my FOH, having a fag and cup of tea.

shufflebeat

maltingsaudio said:

Thought I’d put this here as it’s all about IEMs I assume. Festival tonight…

Feeling your pain.

I’m sure it all worked seamlessly in the rehearsal space.

uberscott

Ouch - yeah that's not ideal eh! 

For festivals we're looking at a 16ch splitter so we can plug into the front of that, one side of the splitter will go into our RCF mixer for our IEMs, the other side will have a snake with labelled up tails which we can pass to FOH. Hopefully should make life easier for everyone.

Roland

We have splitters on the inputs to our XR18 for that very purpose.

davros

uberscott said:

Ouch - yeah that's not ideal eh! 

For festivals we're looking at a 16ch splitter so we can plug into the front of that, one side of the splitter will go into our RCF mixer for our IEMs, the other side will have a snake with labelled up tails which we can pass to FOH. Hopefully should make life easier for everyone.

That sounds like the best solution, you have full control over monitoring and don't have to deal with not being able to hear yourself, and someone else can make sure FOH sounds good.

maltingsaudio

uberscott said:

Ouch - yeah that's not ideal eh! 

For festivals we're looking at a 16ch splitter so we can plug into the front of that, one side of the splitter will go into our RCF mixer for our IEMs, the other side will have a snake with labelled up tails which we can pass to FOH. Hopefully should make life easier for everyone.

The problem with this is changeover times. If I read this correctly, your going to ask the stage crew to unplug all their mics from their stage box then plug all your mics in, or plug their mics into your mixer ? Baring in mind it would be fairly normal for the stage box to be running at least 32 channels on a big stage therefor a lot of care would have to taken when patching to make sure the  correct mic is plugged into the correct channel for front of house. For example, lead vocals on a 32 channel patch would be on inputs 30-32  your lead vocals on your mixer are on 13-16.13-16 on a 32 channel patch would usually be bass and guitars