Choosing PA tops, and a sub

roundthebend

Following up on my previous thread: https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/246683/pa-kit-advice-4-piece-pub-covers-band

Let's say our little covers band might play an outdoor, beer garden gig, on occasions. I think that means we'll want a bit more volume to fill the space. We have no desire to be loud though, our music is not really that style where we're trying to rip your face off.

So, to the novice it's really hard to choose speakers. They always talk about power, but then it's confused by Peak and Continuous. And that doesn't mean much anyway, so I'm told. The overall design and quality can affect the volume and sound.

I'm seeing Alto TX310 as a reasonable budget option. Also RCF Art 310a. Then there are a whole host of options on secondhand kit on ebay etc - Mackie, Wharfedale. And the budget stuff from SubZero, Thomann thebox, QTX, Vonyx etc.

Similar question about subs. For an electronic drum kit and maybe the bass to go direct, would a good 15" sub be enough? Or, maybe a lower quality and cheaper 18" might be worth considering.

Danny1969

Well peak means the highest point of the waveform voltage from 0V .... audio is an AC waveform goes positive and negative in regard to whatever the amplifier references as 0V or audio ground. 
Peak to peak means the voltage difference between the positive and negative peaks, so twice the value of peak and a meaningless way to describe a units output into a load but a useful way for manufacturers to big up their small speakers rating. 
RMS is the root mean square average of the amplified audio waveform and the only term that is useful ... to a point. 

Then comes efficiency of the speaker, some require much less power than others to be deafening ... just like in guitar cabs really. Then there's cabinet design, throw and dissipation.  Basically you want a speaker cabinet to be loud but also be cable of a wide pattern rather than 2 narrow beans of sound. 

Then there's amplifier class. Linear AB amps in my experience always sound louder than class D. I don't know why but they do. We have HK Linear Pro systems in our rental stock which are all linear AB designs but capable of doing 500 people outdoor festivals despite the face the tops are rated at 400 watts and the bins are 500. The cabinets are very big though. 

What doesn't help is lying about a units capability. I've repaired a few active PA speakers that simply can't handle their rated wattage. The actual switching Mosfets aren't rated high enough. This murky situation deepens when you realise  some active speakers from different manufacturers are using the same class D underpowered amplifiers internally from OEM brands.  

My advice is get a Peavey class AB power amp ... be about £150 for a PV1500 or similar. Then get a couple of passive tops from HK or Peavey Hisys or  similar for £300 or so. This will be very loud and last longer than your band. 
For a sub either buy a Mackie Thump or similar or get a passive bass bin and use one side of the amp to drive the bin and one side to drive the 2 tops. 

The fashion today is class D PA but it has no advantage over a good old fashioned linear system. In fact passive speakers are easier to use in a lot of instances , especially outdoors, requiring no mains connection just a speaker cable. 

ESBlonde

There is truth that you get what you pay for to a large degree although some brand names carry a premium. Alto and wharfdale are budget end whilst RCF or Mackie might be considered mid range value. Why not look at what the local pro hire companies are selling used, they often move on quality stuff that is just a bit scuffed or too untidy for their very profitable corporate jobs.
You can end up with power and quality which will knock the budget stuff into a cocked hat and because the frequency response is typically more even there is less need to fart about trying to kill feedback peaks whilst getting it loud enough.
In terms of power the only meaningful figure is RMS (root mean sq.) peak or musical power are meaningless marketing numbers typically used on lower priced/quality PA gear.

maltingsaudio

The big problem with any conversation like this is balancing budget to needs, especially if you have no practical experience of hearing say an Alto against an HK or taking it up a notch Nexo, Outline ect.


Second hand is definitely the way to go, especially as older kit iss repairable , as opposed to the new gear lottery of of will  it work when it arrives and how long is  the returns process ( that is aimed at Alto!)

roundthebend

My head is still spinning at options but I'm seeing the Alto TS 410/408 as a good new option. More expensive than others but much more power and volume. I like the digital mixer that's built-in too, that would be handy for me doing solo/duo acoustic gigs too.

Question is, given that I'll couple these with a sub, should I look at the 8" or still go for 10" to get the volume?

I think both are fairly compact and lightweight, but there's a cost difference. £340 ish for the 10", £290 for the 8".

Sporky

maltingsaudio said:

The big problem with any conversation like this is balancing budget to needs, especially if you have no practical experience of hearing say an Alto against an HK or taking it up a notch Nexo, Outline ect.

I love a bit of Nexo. I think I'm about to get an order for a system for a sports hall with four P12s and a pair of L15s. It should have a bit of punch. 

shufflebeat

Danny1969 said:

Well peak means the highest point of the waveform voltage from 0V .... audio is an AC waveform goes positive and negative in regard to whatever the amplifier references as 0V or audio ground. 
Peak to peak means the voltage difference between the positive and negative peaks, so twice the value of peak and a meaningless way to describe a units output into a load but a useful way for manufacturers to big up their small speakers rating. 
RMS is the root mean square average of the amplified audio waveform and the only term that is useful ... to a point. 

Then comes efficiency of the speaker, some require much less power than others to be deafening ... just like in guitar cabs really. Then there's cabinet design, throw and dissipation.  Basically you want a speaker cabinet to be loud but also be cable of a wide pattern rather than 2 narrow beans of sound. 

Then there's amplifier class. Linear AB amps in my experience always sound louder than class D. I don't know why but they do. We have HK Linear Pro systems in our rental stock which are all linear AB designs but capable of doing 500 people outdoor festivals despite the face the tops are rated at 400 watts and the bins are 500. The cabinets are very big though. 

What doesn't help is lying about a units capability. I've repaired a few active PA speakers that simply can't handle their rated wattage. The actual switching Mosfets aren't rated high enough. This murky situation deepens when you realise  some active speakers from different manufacturers are using the same class D underpowered amplifiers internally from OEM brands.  

My advice is get a Peavey class AB power amp ... be about £150 for a PV1500 or similar. Then get a couple of passive tops from HK or Peavey Hisys or  similar for £300 or so. This will be very loud and last longer than your band. 
For a sub either buy a Mackie Thump or similar or get a passive bass bin and use one side of the amp to drive the bin and one side to drive the 2 tops. 

The fashion today is class D PA but it has no advantage over a good old fashioned linear system. In fact passive speakers are easier to use in a lot of instances , especially outdoors, requiring no mains connection just a speaker cable. 

Even though I’ve gone “active” myself for the sake of squeezing a few more cigarette papers into the car I agree with the sentiment expressed here.

For a long time I used some EV sx300s and a Yamaha powered amp. The system gave me no trouble in all the years I used it, apart from a blown tweeter which was down to someone else’s carelessness and it always sounded great, or at least the amp/speakers were never the weakest link.

roundthebend

With a passive speaker setup, and power amp, how does it affect monitor setup? I guess, monitors can be active and run direct from the desk? So, how about a passive sub?

Danny1969

Monitoring, be it wedges or IEM's are totally independent of FOH in normal situations

Having said that one advantage of passive speakers and stereo power amps is in a pinch, you can get one amp to run both FOH and monitors. Basically one side of the amp runs the FOH in mono and other side runs 2 wedges in mono. With class D active speakers you can't play around like this, if a box goes down then there's not much you can do except finish the gig with one side only then get it repaired before the next gig. 

Class D active monitors are very handy though as a lot of them feature a bit of DSP which makes avoiding feedback easier for less experienced bands. 

So left and right outputs  from the desk goes to power amp left and right which feeds passive speakers left and right. 

Aux sends from desk feed active monitors and  / all IEM feeds. 

Flanging_Fred

I’m no expert on PA stuff but for our pub covers band the Alto PA package that our  singer purchased (subs,tops and mixer) has performer really well over the past few years, caused us no trouble and from the (audience) feedback we get, sounds good.  Yes it’s budget gear but for us it’s been more than adequate. 

Given the variance in rooms and acoustics, other than maybe getting a digital mixer for extra flexibility/recording//storing settings for our regular venues, so far I don’t feel any need to upgrade to the mid range stuff. I think it’s more important that you have someone doing the sound that knows what he/she is doing, has good ears and preferably some experience. We’re lucky that we have that person.

If we were playing larger clubs and venues then maybe it would be worth spending more, but we’re not at that level.

maltingsaudio

Sporky said:

maltingsaudio said:

The big problem with any conversation like this is balancing budget to needs, especially if you have no practical experience of hearing say an Alto against an HK or taking it up a notch Nexo, Outline ect.

I love a bit of Nexo. I think I'm about to get an order for a system for a sports hall with four P12s and a pair of L15s. It should have a bit of punch. 

If you like the Nexo stuff you’ll love the Outline stuff!

roundthebend

Quick and easy question to answer, probably......hopefully....

For our needs (pub band, small-medium indoor gigs, vocals and e-drums)....
Should we go for 10" main drivers, or 12"? Or other?

Sporky

maltingsaudio said:

Sporky said:

maltingsaudio said:

The big problem with any conversation like this is balancing budget to needs, especially if you have no practical experience of hearing say an Alto against an HK or taking it up a notch Nexo, Outline ect.

I love a bit of Nexo. I think I'm about to get an order for a system for a sports hall with four P12s and a pair of L15s. It should have a bit of punch. 

If you like the Nexo stuff you’ll love the Outline stuff!

I'll have an investigate - ta. 

maltingsaudio

roundthebend said:

Quick and easy question to answer, probably......hopefully....

For our needs (pub band, small-medium indoor gigs, vocals and e-drums)....
Should we go for 10" main drivers, or 12"? Or other?

12’s all the way, 10’s don’t have the response tend to be sharp ie you miss low mid and bass with them and 15’s six of one half dozen of the other, don’t really lend themselves well when adding to your system 

Danny1969

I totally agree with @maltingsaudio ;
 12" all the way. Pretty capable on their own but also no hole in the lower mid when you pair them with bins. 

Try and buy something decent. Beware of 2nd hand active boxes. I've repaired a few active speakers recently that are 8 to 10 years old and told the customers if ones failed then the other will fail shortly and the response is "fix that one so I can sell the pair" 
You get so many hours, then they fail ... so bear that in mind. 

roundthebend

Cheers fellas (I assume)

I'm probably going to go with Yamaha DBR12s at £380 each. 4 years warranty from Yamaha which is plenty of life for that money.

roundthebend

Cheers fellas (I assume)

I'm probably going to go with Yamaha DBR12s at £380 each. 4 years warranty from Yamaha which is plenty of life for that money.

roundthebend

I've opted for a pair of Alto TS412 with 3 years warranty from GuitarGuitar. The Yamaha DBR12 went out of stock then prices started climbing. Several folk who I value the advice of suggested the audio quality of both was comparable so to save the cash. I paid £750 (Yamaha set was £846).

Next up I'll be considering bass bins. Well, most likely singular as I don't want to be lugging two around and we generally play small pubs.

koneguitarist

To be honest i bought a s/h pair of QSL K12 speakers, I knew the band well and they had hardly used them. Best tops I have used for a long time. 

roundthebend

One gig so far with the tops. We ended up playing outside in a huge beer garden and our sound engineer assistant said it was a bit of a strain on them, which isn't too surprising. Indoors, even in large pubs, they're likely to be fine I suspect.

For the sub we're still borrowing kit, they seem to be mega expensive and storage space is at a premium in my house so I'm waiting that out.