Interesting British amp

Gassage

I just don't see where he's pitching this.

Jesse Hoffs at least alluded to a genre of amps and then became best in class.

This seems to be standalone class and has no comparisons- dangerous when you're a start up at this price point.

jpfamps

Danny1969 said:

Wow £1800 for a 1 x 12" 20 watt combo! Is that not a bit (well a lot) much ?

And the implication is here that the manufacturer is chiselling the customer?

Or that making an amp in the UK, using UK-made parts, is a pointless exercise due to the costs?

ICBM

jpfamps said:

I also think that most manufacturers don't use EL84s optimally with respect to HT voltage and loading.

VOX got it right with the (original) AC30.

Which is why they sound so good, as well as not being (too) hard on valves despite running them typically at 16W at idle (with a 12W rating.) Modern amps with 400V on the plates and similar dissipations kill them in short order.

jpfamps

ICBM said:

jpfamps said:

I also think that most manufacturers don't use EL84s optimally with respect to HT voltage and loading.

VOX got it right with the (original) AC30.

Which is why they sound so good, as well as not being (too) hard on valves despite running them typically at 16W at idle (with a 12W rating.) Modern amps with 400V on the plates and similar dissipations kill them in short order.

Exactly. 

Part of the problem too is most manufacturers us an 8k primary OT as that is "correct" for EL84s. The higher HT requires a higher loading.

samzadgan

@jpfamps...I know you make those EL34 amps...and I'm pretty sure other smaller or more custom amp builders do it...i was refering to the mass market brands.

 

On AC30...its always intrigued me...but I've heard Vox amps and i've never liked the music thats come out of them...thats most likely because of the type of music, or the guitar player playing things i dont like...or EQ'ing the amp in a way thats not pleasing to my ears...but thats always put me off evenr trying one.

I did own a Valvetronic which I didnt like at all...but I'm not considering that as part of any experience with Vox amps.

jpfamps

samzadgan said:

@jpfamps...I know you make those EL34 amps...and I'm pretty sure other smaller or more custom amp builders do it...i was refering to the mass market brands.

 

On AC30...its always intrigued me...but I've heard Vox amps and i've never liked the music thats come out of them...thats most likely because of the type of music, or the guitar player playing things i dont like...or EQ'ing the amp in a way thats not pleasing to my ears...but thats always put me off evenr trying one.

I did own a Valvetronic which I didnt like at all...but I'm not considering that as part of any experience with Vox amps.

To answer you 1st point, I think most mass manufacturers are beholden to their marketing departments, and a higher powered amp looks better than a lower powered amp, so there is probably pressure to extract as much power from the output stage as possible (although not always a good idea for reliability).

The cost difference in making say a 30W 2 x EL34 amp and a 60W 2 x EL34 amp is marginal, but a 60W amp looks a "better value" product. We've already seen a poster in this thread bridling at the cost of a 20W amp.

A decent original AC30 is a fantastic sounding amp, although it's a sound that I can see not working for many styles of music.

If you are not an Edge, Brian May, early Rory Gallagher or even Brad Paisley fan then you might not be able to fully appreciate the sonic properties of the AC30.

Bucket

I love that the lower reaches of the tremolo's speed control were described as "slower than the breath of a snoozing whale".

I may use that phrase from time to time.

Bucket

Also interesting that people seem to have a downer on EL84s.

Given that I'm about to buy a Mesa and am torn between two 25-watt models which both run on EL84s, can someone explain?

ICBM

jpfamps said:

If you are not an Edge, Brian May, early Rory Gallagher or even Brad Paisley fan then you might not be able to fully appreciate the sonic properties of the AC30.

Or Tom Petty, Peter Buck, or Neil Finn… 

But interestingly they have been used for 'rockier' music by some people you might be surprised by. A great example is that Ritchie Blackmore used one for most of the early Deep Purple recordings, well into the period when he was using Marshalls on stage. Status Quo famously used them too, at one point having AC30 chassis built into Marshall head casings. Dave Grohl is a well-known modern user. So they *can* do heavier sounds than you might expect.

(You most likely know this! Just mentioned for everyone else :0.)

samzadgan

Yeah I see your point about marketing and sales, that is a very valid reason...unless like Laney you go the route of trying to cater for everything with the 30w Ironheart which can have 6L6 or EL34...which is cool...if only it was a more simple single channel or even 2 channel amp.

 

As far as the price on that 20w...i dont see an issue with it. There's all types of companies charging all type of money for their gear...to say one is justified and one isn't is really a false argument. It all comes down to a simple point of "are you as an individual willing to pay that much that product"...if yes, then you are the target audience, and if not, then your not the target audience.

 

But its a good point that Mainstream amps companies want everyone to be in their target audience, so they have to go for the whole "better value" product as you say.

 

And yeah...none of those guitarists really do anything for me...respect them (except for edge)...but not a guitar sound that i aspire to.

jpfamps

ICBM said:

jpfamps said:

If you are not an Edge, Brian May, early Rory Gallagher or even Brad Paisley fan then you might not be able to fully appreciate the sonic properties of the AC30.

Or Tom Petty, Peter Buck, or Neil Finn… 

But interestingly they have been used for 'rockier' music by some people you might be surprised by. A great example is that Ritchie Blackmore used one for most of the early Deep Purple recordings, well into the period when he was using Marshalls on stage. Status Quo famously used them too, at one point having AC30 chassis built into Marshall head casings. Dave Grohl is a well-known modern user. So they *can* do heavier sounds than you might expect.

(You most likely know this! Just mentioned for everyone else :0.)

In the studio Tom Petty uses Tweed Deluxes (often the TV front version) and AC15s.

Quo still use AC30s in the Marshall head live.

ICBM

I've said this before, but guitarists should try to stop shopping by power rating. Apart from in extreme cases, it's very rarely the most important factor *by itself* as to whether an amp is going to suit you tonally or even be the right volume. Speaker efficiency, voicing, headroom and dynamics are at least as important. The cost of an amp is far more dependent on the build quality and complexity than it is on the power output.

It would be very easy to find a particular 10W amp which was much more expensive than a particular 100W amp, sounded better and was equally loud enough for a particular player. Or for that matter the other way round… *even if both players play at the same actual volume*.

RaymondLin

Bucket said:

Also interesting that people seem to have a downer on EL84s.

Given that I'm about to buy a Mesa and am torn between two 25-watt models which both run on EL84s, can someone explain?

If you like the sound off the amp then I wouldn't worry about what tube it uses. It's all personal opinion at the end off the day.

jpfamps

ICBM said:

I've said this before, but guitarists should try to stop shopping by power rating. Apart from in extreme cases, it's very rarely the most important factor *by itself* as to whether an amp is going to suit you tonally or even be the right volume. Speaker efficiency, voicing, headroom and dynamics are at least as important. The cost of an amp is far more dependent on the build quality and complexity than it is on the power output.

It would be very easy to find a particular 10W amp which was much more expensive than a particular 100W amp, sounded better and was equally loud enough for a particular player. Or for that matter the other way round… *even if both players play at the same actual volume*.

Absolutely.

I think many AC30s got junked in the late 70s early 80s because they were "only" 30W amps, and a "proper" professional amp was 100W.

samzadgan

100w is good for clean headroom at high volume...thats the only reason i go for it, as i'm a pedal junky...but a 30w will do more than enough volume...even for doom...which is known for rediculous volumes...if you like dirt from a cranked amp than 30w would be fine...to increase volume you run it through a 4x12 or if thats not enough add another 4x12 or 2x15...

jpfamps

RaymondLin said:

Bucket said:

Also interesting that people seem to have a downer on EL84s.

Given that I'm about to buy a Mesa and am torn between two 25-watt models which both run on EL84s, can someone explain?

If you like the sound off the amp then I wouldn't worry about what tube it uses. It's all personal opinion at the end off the day.

Absolutely.

Danny1969

jpfamps said:

Danny1969 said:

Wow £1800 for a 1 x 12" 20 watt combo! Is that not a bit (well a lot) much ?

And the implication is here that the manufacturer is chiselling the customer?

Or that making an amp in the UK, using UK-made parts, is a pointless exercise due to the costs?

I just think it's over priced for what it offers. But I'm in a minority when it comes to preference to  amps. I don't see the point in making amps pretty, I would rather they were made with a flap to protect the controls, so they could survive in the van without a hard case and all the sockets were on the front, not hidden around the back where you can't get to em at a typical gig cos your amps pushed against the wall. 

The ideal wattage for me is around 5 to 10 watts with a typical 1 x 12" speaker I think. I don't want to pay more for bigger transformers and more valves when I don't need the extra watts. 

Dave_Mc

jpfamps said:

If you are a serious US amp company then you will need a distributor to handle warranty obligation; this costs money which adds to the final price.

Yeah. As I suggested, blaming customs/import fees is sort of a red herring- the gov does want you to buy here (ideally stuff made here), but there are other costs which normally far outweigh those by some margin.

(Serious question, not sarcasm) Is the distributor thing not true for EU-made amps, too? E.g. Engl etc. all have distributors etc. as well- even most of the bigger British manufacturers. I'm guessing it's cheaper with the British ones since they can (presumably) just send them back to the manufacturer, but I'm guessing with the EU ones that'd be prohibitive? Just wondering why the US stuff has so much of a markup compared to everything else. Most of the USA doesn't have sales tax, so that doesn't help, but when you look at US prices for US-made gear you're normally talking the guts of double as much in Europe, whereas with EU-made stuff in the USA the price is normally comparable, or only slightly more.

ICBM

Danny1969 said:

I just think it's over priced for what it offers. But I'm in a minority when it comes to preference to  amps. I don't see the point in making amps pretty, I would rather they were made with a flap to protect the controls, so they could survive in the van without a hard case and all the sockets were on the front, not hidden around the back where you can't get to em at a typical gig cos your amps pushed against the wall.

I hate having sockets on the front - the cables get in the way, I even prefer to use a right-angle one on the input so the cable can be looped back over the amp more easily. I've never played a gig, no matter how small, where the amp has to be so tight against a wall that you can't get cables in. If it was you'd need to be careful about heat buildup too. (Would you want the power cable on the front too? Just curious.)

I don't see this amp as being overpriced if it's as well-made as something like a Matchless… but it could be if it's not.

Danny1969

ICBM said:

Danny1969 said:

I just think it's over priced for what it offers. But I'm in a minority when it comes to preference to  amps. I don't see the point in making amps pretty, I would rather they were made with a flap to protect the controls, so they could survive in the van without a hard case and all the sockets were on the front, not hidden around the back where you can't get to em at a typical gig cos your amps pushed against the wall.

I hate having sockets on the front - the cables get in the way, I even prefer to use a right-angle one on the input so the cable can be looped back over the amp more easily. I've never played a gig, no matter how small, where the amp has to be so tight against a wall that you can't get cables in. If it was you'd need to be careful about heat buildup too. (Would you want the power cable on the front too? Just curious.)

I don't see this amp as being overpriced if it's as well-made as something like a Matchless… but it could be if it's not.

It's not that you can't get the cables in .... it's rather you can't see what your doing. Yes I would have the power cable on the front for that reason. My rack setup which I use for the bigger money bands has every connector including the power on the front because it makes setting up quicker and easier. 

I do actually own an amp with all the sockets on the front, a Fender Princeton Chorus but the thing sounds so bad I would never gig it