Hand wired boutique amps over production amps

DrCornelius

Those mini jubilees are great amps boutique ot not (not !). Buy used and you’ll be able to make your money back if you decide it’s not for you as they don’t seem to hang around long on here 

ICBM

"Boutique" is and really always has been a meaningless term used to justify snobbery and excessive pricing. Either an amp is well-made or it isn't, and large companies can do that as well as small ones - even if they often don't.

The Mini Jubilee is significantly different from a JTM45 reissue though.

Nerine

“Boutique” is pretty stupid really. It’s a guitar amplifier. All of this stuff was demystified years ago. They’re electrical components from parts bins whichever way you slice it. 

As much as I really love Two Rock amps, and really wish I hadn’t have sold mine, the price of entry now is just plain ridiculous for what it is. 

For me, usually there is a value proposition. Once you get past £2-3k (+/- a bit because obviously it varies a bit depending on what you’re buying) I’m not sure the value proposition remains anymore. 

Like, I don’t care who put the guitar/amp together, it just is not worth the amount being asked for it. 

Musicians are pretty stupid really. It’s such a backward facing industry in terms of equipment.. 

You don’t see (en masse) computer nerds pining for old GTX8800’s to SLi together in their quad core Q6700 builds so they can play vintage games more period correctly. (I appreciate this does happen, but the bleeding edge is far more prominent). 

The bottom line is people conflate the significance of the music with the importance of the equipment used. 

The gear just happened to be around at the time these groundbreaking records were made. There wasn’t anything magical about it. The music played on it was what popularised it, yet people lust after vintage amplifiers and guitars because they sound better. They don’t. The songs were better. And people don’t know how to differentiate between the two. 

People drone on about the Zeppelin drum sound. It’s nothing special, really. The songs and the performances have the sound meaning or purpose and consequently, gave the gear a mystique. 

If Bonham had been playing Premier rather than Ludwig, people would have been fawning after that instead. 

People chase sounds. The reason is because they like the music. If Van Halen were shit, nobody would be chasing the “Brown Sound”. 

It’s ridiculous. 

Alex2678

We all contribute to it I think, the better made amps available at the minute are valve amps, because no company would dare make a really high end solid state/digital amp, and they’re probably right not to because it would be a hard sell - because people equate valves with quality and durability, and at the moment they’re probably right to, because no one’s making really high end…….Round in circles 

NickB

If it sounds good it is good irrespective of whether it's handwired or mass production. 

MikeP

How is it ridiculous? Those guys DEFINED what good sound IS. If Clapton had played a guild in 66 everyone would be chasing those as the definition of good sound. Or to put it another way, the gear WAS made magical...

ICBM

MikeP said:

How is it ridiculous? Those guys DEFINED what good sound IS. If Clapton had played a guild in 66 everyone would be chasing those as the definition of good sound. Or to put it another way, the gear WAS made magical...

And yet, a lot of Clapton's fans think that his best-ever tone was on Derek & The Dominoes Live At The Fillmore.

For which he used a Sunn Coliseum Lead head through a Marshall cabinet...

and which is not only mass-produced, it's solid state .

Secret_Sam

When my kids finally graduate, getting a Matamp is on my bucket list.  Because I bought a cab from Mat Mathias when I was about 19, and I really liked him (yes I know he is now no more).  

Do they still tick all the right handmade, good layout boxes?  I have in mind a thiry watter, because I don't live on a farm.

ICBM

Secret_Sam said:

When my kids finally graduate, getting a Matamp is on my bucket list.  Because I bought a cab from Mat Mathias when I was about 19, and I really liked him (yes I know he is now no more).  

Do they still tick all the right handmade, good layout boxes?  I have in mind a thiry watter, because I don't live on a farm.

Yes, they're definitely still hand made. Many of the models use PCBs for the main part of the circuit (often with turrets for most of the components), but with chassis-mounted pots, jacks and valve sockets.

Secret_Sam

That's very good to know. I'll carry on saving then :- ) Thanks.

Yorkie

ICBM said:

Secret_Sam said:

When my kids finally graduate, getting a Matamp is on my bucket list.  Because I bought a cab from Mat Mathias when I was about 19, and I really liked him (yes I know he is now no more).  

Do they still tick all the right handmade, good layout boxes?  I have in mind a thiry watter, because I don't live on a farm.

Yes, they're definitely still hand made. Many of the models use PCBs for the main part of the circuit (often with turrets for most of the components), but with chassis-mounted pots, jacks and valve sockets.

That’s a thing of beauty. 

Secret_Sam

The prices are not bad either. About £1650 for the GT40 or the Series 3000.

Nerine

MikeP said:

How is it ridiculous? Those guys DEFINED what good sound IS. If Clapton had played a guild in 66 everyone would be chasing those as the definition of good sound. Or to put it another way, the gear WAS made magical...

What?

Nah. No they didn’t. Conflating the performance with the equipment, again. 

The sound was “good” because they could play and they were groundbreaking at the time. 

Their songs and performances wouldn’t have sounded any worse on any of the other period equipment at the time. 

Alex2678

It would’ve sounded different though, then those would be the tones people chase

Nerine

Alex2678 said:

It would’ve sounded different though, then those would be the tones people chase

Which is in line with my original post. 

gumbothewiddler

Back on thread, I think there is often confusion between ‘hand wired’ and point to point. some people only think of point to point or turret board construction as hand wired. the reality is a well-designed pcb can have ‘hand wired’ components added to the board by actual people who know what they’re doing in a factory (large or small), think 80s Soldano/ Rivera etc etc. 

This is in stark contrast to anything which has been surface mounted and stuffed through a flow machine which I wouldn’t want as they’re effectively just disposable if they go wrong. 

Secret_Sam

Where do Session amps fit into this picture?

ICBM

gumbothewiddler said:

Back on thread, I think there is often confusion between ‘hand wired’ and point to point. some people only think of point to point or turret board construction as hand wired. the reality is a well-designed pcb can have ‘hand wired’ components added to the board by actual people who know what they’re doing in a factory (large or small), think 80s Soldano/ Rivera etc etc. 

This is in stark contrast to anything which has been surface mounted and stuffed through a flow machine which I wouldn’t want as they’re effectively just disposable if they go wrong. 

Only if you don't know what you're doing. I'm not equipped to do surface-mount work or experienced with it, but I know techs who are... if you can fix a mobile phone or a laptop at component level - and they can - then a guitar amp is a piece of cake. OK, some may not be *economically* repairable, but that's more a reflection on low manufacturing cost than repairability.

At the end of the day a *high quality* PCB amp is at least as durable as a hand-wired one - provided the board itself is decent, and components which produce lots of heat, are heavy enough to vibrate, or are subject to external physical damage (ie valves, high-power resistors, pots and jacks) are mounted properly or off the board entirely. Of course, in many these things aren't done because it costs more.

Alex2678

Nerine said:

Alex2678 said:

It would’ve sounded different though, then those would be the tones people chase

Which is in line with my original post. 

Yeah it is, but I think it’s also in line with what MikeP was saying. 

gumbothewiddler

ICBM said:

gumbothewiddler said:

Back on thread, I think there is often confusion between ‘hand wired’ and point to point. some people only think of point to point or turret board construction as hand wired. the reality is a well-designed pcb can have ‘hand wired’ components added to the board by actual people who know what they’re doing in a factory (large or small), think 80s Soldano/ Rivera etc etc. 

This is in stark contrast to anything which has been surface mounted and stuffed through a flow machine which I wouldn’t want as they’re effectively just disposable if they go wrong. 

Only if you don't know what you're doing. I'm not equipped to do surface-mount work or experienced with it, but I know techs who are... if you can fix a mobile phone or a laptop at component level - and they can - then a guitar amp is a piece of cake. OK, some may not be *economically* repairable, but that's more a reflection on low manufacturing cost than repairability.

At the end of the day a *high quality* PCB amp is at least as durable as a hand-wired one - provided the board itself is decent, and components which produce lots of heat, are heavy enough to vibrate, or are subject to external physical damage (ie valves, high-power resistors, pots and jacks) are mounted properly or off the board entirely. Of course, in many these things aren't done because it costs more.

That’s essentially what I said re PCBs. My original SLO is a PCB as they all were and you would be hard-pressed to find anything more durable. Heck, they were so confident offered lifetime warranties to the original owners. 

However, It’s my preference not to own an amp with surface mount components. I’m sure you probably do know people who can fix surface mount amps but I suspect most people wouldn’t know who to go to and whether it’s economically worth it to fix. Therefore, by their very nature, they will become disposable. iPhones etc are economically viable as they have an endless queue of people who want them, even refurbished and they are sold in quantities vastly in excess of guitar amps.