Moddellers in 2023

clarke_111

Hi all,

Just wondering what the sense is in how ‘accepted’ modelling tech is in 2023, particularly in more ‘traditional’ genres (blues etc).

I’ve been a guitarist most of my life but I drop in and out in terms of my level of involvement/passion/interest in the instrument. As a youngster in my later teens (early-mid 2000s) I played regularly in a band experimenting a lot with sound and loved FX pedals, multi FX etc - running a big board into the front of my amp. I stopped playing for a while and when I came back to it in my late 20s I got into blues-the band I played with was just a duo, me with a resonator into a 5w tube amp and them on drums a a vocals.

Over the pandemic I got more into electronic music, and have spent the last few years buying and selling drum machines, samplers, synths etc with screens, knobs and lights galore. I’ve recently started playing a lot more guitar again and the logical step seemed to be Moddeller. I have picked up a Boss GX100, plugged into my electronic set up it’s great, and I can also run it into the power amp in on my Boss Katana and get a good ‘amp in the room’ sound at home. The FX are great and it’s super versatile. Coming from the electronic world this seemed a no brainer.

However, I’ve also started playing with the blues duo again, and although it works, using the moddeller on that one environment with a magnetic pickup on a battered resonator just ‘feels’ wrong. Is anyone else routinely now using moddellers for blues based gigs with their ‘retro’ guitars. I love the feel of old strats and Gibson etc, but it seems to me that the two worlds are very separate at the moment. Just curious around other’s experiences, views and opinions were on this…. 

fretmeister

John Mayer did a tour with a Kemper. He sounded great.

That should be the end of any discussion, but it's the pub weekend warriors that will complain the most.

AndyJP

I've compared Axefx 2, Kemper and Helix LT.  I'm into American roots based stuff as well.  For me the Helix clean and edge of breakups are brilliant.  Spefically the Matchless, Deluxe Reverb and Princeton Models.   The Helix UI is also the easiest to use.

Bats_

Profilers are different to modellers. 

Any recent unit will sound good now, even the Helix is about 7 years old and has just gotten better and better.

A great deal of it depends on what your are amplifying it with too.

mrkb

Scott Holiday of Rivals Sons is touring with a helix - and hes very picky about his sounds.

chrisj1602

I love pedals and valve amps, but using my Helix LT instead has been super easy and a lot of fun. For gigs I have been using it with an amp, but I’d be happy to go full Helix if needs be, or if I didn’t like my amp so much! I like that I can use it with or without the amp modelling.

Voxman

Whilst I have a Pod Go, I've been gigging for years now with my Vox Tonelabs (SE & LE) either straight through the FOH PA or (more recently) through 1 or 2 Headrush FRFR108's.  Yes these are old tech, they don't have state of the art modelling, no IR or audio interface capability, no USB, no upgradeability, no FX loop, limited amp, fx, cab models, and these are bigger & heavier than most modern day MFX units.

So why am I still using them? Quite simply they're still the best MFX for my gigging needs that I've found. Way ahead of their time in their day (TLSE 2004, TLLE 2007), the very clever mix of digital pre-amp domain with valve power amp section gives these units a feel, full bodied tone & dynamics that can still give even many modern MFX units a run for their money on stage. Built like a tank, these have heavy duty PSU's with a long, thick cable, & a mid-cable transformer that has its own on/off switch, which means a standard 3-pin plug instead of an ugly, awkward wall-wart. With a clear LCD display, real knobs, dials and switches for fast selections, tweaks, control switch and (on the TLSE) dual expression pedals and A/B switching in a patch, these were designed for gigging.  No DSP grey-outs, no long menu driven UI, easy to use edit software & MIDI capability, patch-naming, instant patch changing, & easy switch between pre-set & stomp modes. 

On stage, you need it to be solid, reliable, simple, fast & easy to use & tweak. The subtle modelling nuances of modern MFX that sound great at home or in the studio largely go out the window in a live band mix at gig volume.  And especially for what I play, mainly classic rock & blues, these units just 'do the job'.  

crunchman

Modellers have been decent for 20 odd years.  I remember playing live with a Pod XT into the PA.  There was a friend there who was a guitar tech for his job.  He said it sounded better out front than when I played with an amp.

The problem I had with that was hearing myself on stage so I went back to using amps.  I've gone digital more recently though.  The latest modellers are a massive step up on a Pod XT as well.

octatonic

mrkb said:

Scott Holiday of Rivals Sons is touring with a helix - and hes very picky about his sounds.

Using a modeller live is mostly to do with saving money when touring.
Not saying they aren't good- I use modellers a lot, but that is the reason.

It sounds good enough for live and has consistency from gig to gig in the way that a tube amp sometimes doesn't.

Voxman

octatonic said:

mrkb said:

Scott Holiday of Rivals Sons is touring with a helix - and hes very picky about his sounds.

Using a modeller live is mostly to do with saving money when touring.
Not saying they aren't good- I use modellers a lot, but that is the reason.

It sounds good enough for live and has consistency from gig to gig in the way that a tube amp sometimes doesn't.

Yup, for me its all about size, weight, ease of set up, simplicity of use on stage, and consistent tone through FOH and/or powered speakers.  I have 6 guitar amps, 3 hybrids & 3 valve, and 2 extn cabs.  I'm now 66 & I just can't schlapp heavy gear anymore, up/down stairs, in/out of cars. And its not just the amp but the pedal board and/or floor controller too.  And the ability for me to see patch names at a gig is an absolute 'must have' as I set my patches up in gig set order, even where tones are duplicated - keeps things really simple on stage with the minimum of cables and mains leads.  My standard pedal board & not even my VC12 floor controller for my Valvetronix amps can do that (just patch/bank numbers).   

My Headrush FRFR108's are only 19lbs each & easy to carry.  Even two of these are still way lighter than any of my gigging amps, & I can carry them one at a time.   

willo

I have loved returning to playing live after a decade, and switching to modellers. It's a breeze for setup and also with switching features like Snapshots. The only thing that unsettles me is the sound on stage point - I'm dependent on the monitor set up whereas, with an amp, it was all completely under my control. However this hasn't led to any issues so far, so I think it's probably in my head. 

Voxman

willo said:

I have loved returning to playing live after a decade, and switching to modellers. It's a breeze for setup and also with switching features like Snapshots. The only thing that unsettles me is the sound on stage point - I'm dependent on the monitor set up whereas, with an amp, it was all completely under my control. However this hasn't led to any issues so far, so I think it's probably in my head. 

I use one of my Headrush FRFR108 as a monitor as it gives me consistent tone and volume control so I'm not relying on an in house monitor that aren't always that good. 

Roland

Likewise, I bring my own guitar monitor

bloodandtears

I was taking a wedge but it was cumbersome sat next to the in-house wedges (and not as powerful either in the main )

So a I switched to a back-line styled FRFR speaker... hence my love for the Laney LFR112.. the form factor suits my use case.

crunchman

willo said:

I have loved returning to playing live after a decade, and switching to modellers. It's a breeze for setup and also with switching features like Snapshots. The only thing that unsettles me is the sound on stage point - I'm dependent on the monitor set up whereas, with an amp, it was all completely under my control. However this hasn't led to any issues so far, so I think it's probably in my head. 

I bought myself a decent quality QSC active PA cab.  It's shaped so that I can use it as a wedge on the floor.

It has two inputs, so I use one of them for a direct signal from my guitar/modeller, and one for a feed from the desk of the other things I want in my monitor.  If I'm using my QC, then I have the XLR outputs going to the desk, and the jack outputs to the monitor.   If I'm using a UA pedal on my pedalboard for modelling, I use a DI box to split the signal.  This one has two outputs:

 

That way I have control of the level of my guitar in my monitor, and I'm not at the mercy of the sound engineer turning me down or off in my monitor.  Of course, he can still turn off everything else I want to hear!

Stinkfoot

I've been a Helix user since they came out pretty much, and occasionally go back to valve amps when I've felt I've been missing something. But in my experience, using valve amps on stage always brings more hassles with getting the balance right and takes longer for the sound guy to get it right in the overall mix without certain areas getting blasted by the beam of the speaker.
Plus, as happened on a recent gig, the stage layout was making it so difficult to hear the amp from behind me even at decent volumes that I ended up only being able to really hear it through the monitor anyway.

I haven't given up on the valve amp thing (and am enjoying my fairly new Victory V40 head/cab) but I can see me going back to all digital again for the most part just for simplicity and having more control over the mix I get. I've found the Helix amp model and pedals that work for me consistently and have been told the tones sound really organic. 

As has been mentioned above, I also use a Headrush FR-108 as a wedge and just have that for my guitar signal only...alongside whatever mix I get from the sound guy, or just general on-stage ambience. It gives me total control over my levels and after the initial learning curve of hearing things in front rather than behind you, I'm really comfortable with how it all sounds.

Lestratcaster

I've owned my Kemper since 2020, mainly for home use but I'm starting to play again with the band that finished in 2019. Mainly been using my 6505+ for rehearsals but will try out the Kemper into a PA with some sort of monitor. Lugging cabs and stuff on stage and up flights of stairs stopped becoming fun many years ago. The consistency of the sound each time is very appealing. These days all it takes is for a pisshead to knock the microphone in front of the cab to alter the tone. I'll hope to use my Profiler next month at the show we're playing, and if it goes well then I may stop using tube amps live for good. I still love my 6505+ head, but its fucking heavy (in weight) and only really sounds good with a 4x12 that is a pain the lug around.

Using the Profiler probably makes the sound guy's job easier too as he has better control instead of loud stage volume with mics fighting each other for level.

FarleyUK

I've been using modellers live since about 2017 I think. Started with the Helix, then Kemper, then AX8, and now I use the AFEFX 3 mk2 and also sometimes an FM9. Also tried a QC. Love them - they make things so much easier IMO.

The thing I love is the ease of use and consistent sound; in theory, it should make the sound engineer's job much easier. But having said that, my old band played our last show a few weeks back in Banbury at a certain metal pub, and the engineer refused to allow me to use the FM9 as it was "too complex to set up". I explained it was just 2 XLRs, hard panned L and R, but he just flat out refused.

I had to use one of the support band's amps with zero pedals or FX (I could have used the FM9 for these, but I'd never used it through a head and cab, and we only had 10 mins). This resulted in us playing hard rock songs with a pretty clean sound.... which was interesting.

TheBigDipper

FarleyUK said:

I've been using modellers live since about 2017 I think. Started with the Helix, then Kemper, then AX8, and now I use the AFEFX 3 mk2 and also sometimes an FM9. Also tried a QC. Love them - they make things so much easier IMO.

The thing I love is the ease of use and consistent sound; in theory, it should make the sound engineer's job much easier. But having said that, my old band played our last show a few weeks back in Banbury at a certain metal pub, and the engineer refused to allow me to use the FM9 as it was "too complex to set up". I explained it was just 2 XLRs, hard panned L and R, but he just flat out refused.

I had to use one of the support band's amps with zero pedals or FX (I could have used the FM9 for these, but I'd never used it through a head and cab, and we only had 10 mins). This resulted in us playing hard rock songs with a pretty clean sound.... which was interesting.

You couldn't plug the FM9 into the amp input with the amp set to clean? He wouldn't even let you do that? Wow... 

FarleyUK

TheBigDipper said:

FarleyUK said:

I've been using modellers live since about 2017 I think. Started with the Helix, then Kemper, then AX8, and now I use the AFEFX 3 mk2 and also sometimes an FM9. Also tried a QC. Love them - they make things so much easier IMO.

The thing I love is the ease of use and consistent sound; in theory, it should make the sound engineer's job much easier. But having said that, my old band played our last show a few weeks back in Banbury at a certain metal pub, and the engineer refused to allow me to use the FM9 as it was "too complex to set up". I explained it was just 2 XLRs, hard panned L and R, but he just flat out refused.

I had to use one of the support band's amps with zero pedals or FX (I could have used the FM9 for these, but I'd never used it through a head and cab, and we only had 10 mins). This resulted in us playing hard rock songs with a pretty clean sound.... which was interesting.

You couldn't plug the FM9 into the amp input with the amp set to clean? He wouldn't even let you do that? Wow... 

Pretty certain if you plug it into an amp, you need to ensure power amp modelling is off, no amp or cab is in the chain and a few other things; I didn't have the time to do any of that (plus I used several presets, so would have been a nightmare).

His main complaint was that the PA and monitors "were just for vocals". Er, OK then....

Oh, and I was told on the rider that using the FM9 with stereo XLRs through the PA was fine.

This was a one-off though; most of the time, engineers love the fact you just give them two XLRs.

sgosden

FarleyUK said:

. But having said that, my old band played our last show a few weeks back in Banbury at a certain metal pub, and the engineer refused to allow me to use the FM9 as it was "too complex to set up". I explained it was just 2 XLRs, hard panned L and R, but he just flat out refused.

I had to use one of the support band's amps with zero pedals or FX (I could have used the FM9 for these, but I'd never used it through a head and cab, and we only had 10 mins). This resulted in us playing hard rock songs with a pretty clean sound.... which was interesting.

Ah yes, I've been made to "sheaf" modern technology is similar ways in banbury. Luckily I also ran helix into a cab anyway. 
other venues I have just unplugged the mic on the cab and connected XLR out (ran mono anyway).