Distortion - Sorry to ask

gusman2x

I know it's been done to death, but I'm in need of a heavy crunch/distortion that doesn't get lost. It may be me, and my settings so if it is please let me know.

I love the sound of Muffs, but they all get lost in our 5 pc, including the boutique ones. I like the sound of my RAT, but again, no matter where the filter is set, it just turns into a white noise. SO as such, I've been using a TS9 for my heavies. Can hear the definition well enough, but it's not heavy/thick enough.

Guitars are a Squier J Mascis Jazzmaster (hot-ish P90 style), and a Fender Mustang.

Amp is a Vibrolux Reverb on about 4, so starting to break up a bit.

The other guitarist has the jangly janglies so that makes it hard to have a distorted sound that doesn't sound like a blanket in comparison.

I was just surprised that I couldn't get the RAT to do what I want, as it gets raved about for this very purpose.

All advice gratefully received.

geepers0677

I've never been let down my blackstar HT Dual. Tons of drive and distortion and very user friendly. 

Also - TC Nova drive was great. 

Both thicken things out beautifully...

Just my bit.

joeyowen

Maybe an eq pedal to dial yourself 'into' the mix a bit better?

Tbh, you could have the perfect setting, then the other guitarist adjusts his mids on his amp and you are gone again.  The rat should be fine really maybe dial the gain back a tad, you'd be suprised how much this can help.  More gain != better sound heh

edit: sorry I didn't word that final sentence very well.. I'm not saying clean guitars cut through the best  Think of it this way, you and your band mates are 'fighting' for frequency space.  Try and find yourself a spot on the eq that is free so your sound has room to come through.  Sometimes when people have lots of gain this can just become a muddy sound that gets a bit lost, whereas bringing in a little more clarity can help in certain situations.

orrr, fuck it, fire your band mates, then everrrryyyone will hear you, mwa ha ha haaa

ICBM

I think you're going to need a bigger amp.

The Vibrolux just doesn't get thick or heavy no matter what you do in front of it, especially at the point of breakup - it's the 10" speakers mostly, and the OT.

A Pro Reverb is essentially the same amp but with two 12"s and slightly bigger transformers, and the difference is pretty big. A Twin even more so.

Jalapeno

Mushiness can be down to both guitars playing the same chord inversions - worse still when they are full 6 string barre chords.  There's just too much competing for the same spectrum - another case of less is more.

digitalscream

You really can't do better than the Bogner Red as far as I'm concerned, but if your budget doesn't stretch to that then the AMT C2 gives an excellent blend of (really) heavy crunch with the clarity you get from loud valve amps without the slightly fizzy sheen you get from Peavey-style overgained stuff.

Cirrus

I'd probably suggest that if a Rat turned to white noise at any setting it's the amp setup that's struggling to translate a pedal distortion into a good sound, so you're going to have a similar problem with lots of pedals unless you find one that happens to hit your amp just right. The Tubescreamer probably works because it's not asking much of your amp. But trust me, I've learned from experience that you can't use a pedal to defeat some inherent limitation in your amp setup (and there are always limitations, happy guitarists are the ones who learn to work with them!)

My only suggestions, short of a different amp;

- Run your amp cleaner/ quieter. At a lower volume your power section and speakers won't be saturating as much, so you've got more headroom for punch and clarity on heavier sounds.

- Get a distortion with 3 band EQ. It might not work, but with seperate bass control you can adjust the low end so the tone doesn't sound thin but also doesn't overload the amp. And seperate treble/mid controls can net you clarity without fizz/white noise.

meltedbuzzbox

In my mind I am seeing a Tube screamer and p90s which are both mid heavy which is why you will cut through. 

I would try setting your amp EQ first before you spend any money. Start with everything at 12 o'clock and adjust from there.

Is your amp on the floor as well?

gusman2x

Thanks all.

Yes, I think the amp might be struggling to translate. The other guitarist plays the house amp, which is a twin. Couple this with his chronic case of the turn upsies and I end up losing out. Generally fine clean and with the TS9, but can't get a heavier tone without it going all mushy.

@meltedbuzzbox yes amps are on the floor for rehearsal. We do this because the vocals keep getting drowned out when trying to record them with a zoom h2n.

@joeyownen and @cirrus may well try an EQ. Cheap to try I guess if I get one of the behringer ones.

Another problem is that we never get any time to actually sort out our sound. People are always late, then it gets frantic and everyone just wants to blast through the songs quickly.

Jalapeno

gusman2x said:

Thanks all.

Yes, I think the amp might be struggling to translate. The other guitarist plays the house amp, which is a twin. Couple this with his chronic case of the turn upsies and I end up losing out.

Another problem is that we never get any time to actually sort out our sound. People are always late, then it gets frantic and everyone just wants to blast through the songs quickly.

Get there before him and nab the Twin !

2 guitars getting stupid loud in a rehearsal space will never sound good

digitalscream

gusman2x said:

Yes, I think the amp might be struggling to translate. The other guitarist plays the house amp, which is a twin. Couple this with his chronic case of the turn upsies and I end up losing out. Generally fine clean and with the TS9, but can't get a heavier tone without it going all mushy.

It's probably time to change the rules - or, rather, set some rules.

Set both amps up with the EQ pointing north, set up your amps as you normally would - at the same volume - and then turn them down a bit. One on either side of the room, then both of you stand in the middle and make tiny adjustments until there's enough clarity between both.

It's worth putting a priority on this - getting two guitars to work properly together is far more important than another jam or running through the set again.

meltedbuzzbox

Setting up in a circle is a good idea and if possible play facing your amp. Most people have their amps to their back and in most cases you cant hear them properly. 

However, people that are continually late are a royal pain in the ass and they should sort their shit out. 

Does the other guy play a Twin live?

ICBM

If the other guy has a jangly tone, swap amps. The Vibrolux is perfectly suited to that, the Twin is much better for heavier/thicker pedal-driven ones.

monquixote

It sounds more like you need to spend some time working on your sound in the room and possibly turning down rather than buying gear.

Try putting your amp on a kick back stand as it's a bit easier to hear when things are pointing at your head.

gusman2x

@monquixote yeah, I think we do need to turn down. We have a superbly talented drummer, but he hits very hard. Couple that with the other guitarist wanting to hear himself over everything else, then we end up with a race to the top.

Because of our excessive rehearsal room levels, we can't have the amps off the floor or angled, as they drown out the vocals when capturing them on a zoom.

In general, we've gotten a lot better at balancing the levels, my only concern is that I can't get a heavy/distorted sound that is anything other than white noise in the band mix. Will try cheap EQ

Axe_meister

Also try overdrive stacking. Rather than a single Distortion pedal.

TS9 at a lower gain into the RAT at a lower gain then swap them over to see what happens.

Jalapeno

gusman2x said:

@monquixote yeah, I think we do need to turn down. We have a superbly talented drummer, but he hits very hard.

That is definitely part of the problem - I share your pain.  Ours going electric is the single biggest improvement in our sound and reduction of rehearsal volume

fretmeister

AMP P2 pedal. Great at all positions on the Gain control and has an effective EQ.

Or if you really like your Muff, then the Skreddy P19 is a muff with a mid hump switch

Cirrus

monquixote;385861" said:

Try putting your amp on a kick back stand as it's a bit easier to hear when things are pointing at your head.

I'll probably be in the minority here but I really hate the sound of my amp tilted back at my head. The on axis+ distance sound is usually way brighter/ harsher than any other listening position so I always either struggle or mellow the tone out until it's way too dull everywhere else in the room and up close where a mic would be.

Just my personal experience anyway!

ICBM

Cirrus said:

I'll probably be in the minority here but I really hate the sound of my amp tilted back at my head. The on axis+ distance sound is usually way brighter/ harsher than any other listening position so I always either struggle or mellow the tone out until it's way too dull everywhere else in the room and up close where a mic would be.

Just my personal experience anyway!

100% agreed.

I like the amp kept horizontal with the speakers at about waist height - from experience that gives the best correlation between the sound you hear when you're standing next to it and the sound out in the room.


I still think gusman and the other chap need to swap amps though. Having the jangly/midrangy sound through the Twin and the heavy fuzz-distortion through the Vibrolux is never going to work well, in my opinion - the other way round would.

gusman2x

@ICBM I will give that a try for sure. At the moment there's only one song that calls for the total heavies, but would also like to thicken up some of the other tracks over and above what I'm getting from the TS9. I also have a reasonable amount of janglies (we are a Manchester band )

Kinda loathed to let the other dude use my amp though. He doesn't own the twin, so will be using some SS Laney for live (our first gig is on the 20th of Nov).

Going to go to the room an hour before everyone else next week and try and get some time to A/B the vibrolux and the twin with no one else to see if I can notice a discernible difference with higher gain.