Superlocrian on the dominant!

viz

ooo and hadn't spotted your previous post - luuurvely!

Cranky

Brad said:

A nice little trick to get that Altered sound over a Dom7 without having to worry about names or formulae, is to play the Minor Pentatonic a minor 3rd above the root of the Dom7 chord. 

For example, playing C Minor Pentatonic over A7 gives all the alterations b9 #9 b5 #5 and the b7. 

I did a rough and quick blues (simple changes) below to demonstrate, using C Minor Pentatonic in bar 4 for the move to the D7 and G Minor Pentatonic on the E7 in bar 12. I also snook in Bb Minor Pentatonic in bar 4 at some point too.

This is something that still mystifies me.  How does one keep track of which pentatonic patterns to use for different chords?  

Or maybe the question is: how does one determine which chords are appropriate for playing “altered” scales over (I guess “the wrong notes” so to speak) and which are not?  Is it just a matter of when/where the tension feels right?

I had some time ago set the scale/pentatonic thinking aside in favor of playing the chord changes, taking that probably too literally by using chord tones (with an embellishment here and there).  But clearly it helps to use scale and pentatonic patterns to play with the melodic/amelodic and tension/resolution balance.

viz

The V chord, and the I chord when it’s about to flip to the IV chord (ie it’s behaving as a dominant)

Brad

viz said:

smoothly done!

ooo and hadn't spotted your previous post - luuurvely!

Thank you

Cranky said:

This is something that still mystifies me.  How does one keep track of which pentatonic patterns to use for different chords?  

Or maybe the question is: how does one determine which chords are appropriate for playing “altered” scales over (I guess “the wrong notes” so to speak) and which are not?  Is it just a matter of when/where the tension feels right?

I had some time ago set the scale/pentatonic thinking aside in favor of playing the chord changes, taking that probably too literally by using chord tones (with an embellishment here and there).  But clearly it helps to use scale and pentatonic patterns to play with the melodic/amelodic and tension/resolution balance.

Time, effort and a huge amount of patience being the short answer

I can't remember where I heard about using the minor pentatonic up a minor 3rd from the root of a dominant chord. Most likely it was from a Don Mock book as he liked this kind of approach, or very possibly in Guthrie Govan's Creative Guitar book (who probably got it from Don Mock anyway?)

If you look at a given shape for A Super Locrian, you'll find C minor pentatonic hidden in there (amongst lots of other treats), which is why its fair game. It's the same relationship in every key, G minor pentatonic is in E Super Locrian etc etc.

But it's about knowing the fretboard in a deeper way too. I just know I can and where to play the minor pentatonic a minor 3rd above a given Dom7 (or Alt7th) chord to get an Altered sound. It becomes instinctive after a while of hard yards.

With regards to your second point... it depends. Usually it's over some sort of Dom7 (9th or 13th) or Alt (7#5, 7#9 etc) chord usually acting as V. Like @viz says, I also used it going from chord I7 to IV7 (momentarily treating A7 to D7 as a V7 - I7) in bar 4 of the blues. But tension can take place over any chord, for any length of time, it just depends on the skill of the improvisor in making it work and the ear of the listener in how much they can tolerate. John Scofield is a master at getting so far outside, really twisting the ear and then bringing it back home. But that is really hard to make work.

Having a deep understanding and feeling for form is a big thing too. Start off small, the last two beats of bar 4 of a blues, play two notes of Super Locrian (or Min Pent a min 3rd up) on beats 3 and 4 of that bar, connecting to a chord tone in the next chord. Then do the same but with 4 notes over the two beats (quavers/8ths). Gradually draw this out over the entire bar. You've got to hear this stuff too though, it won't always sound very good at first but your ear will begin to latch on to where you want the alterations and where to resolve.

I've been there myself, and it's a place I think one needs to go, as it's difficult using chord tones. You (well, I did, certainly) end up spending a lot of time exclusively on chord tone island. But it REALLY grinds my gears when I hear/read people complaining about scales and the Pentatonic scale in particular. My Pentatonic scale is the same as yours, it's how we use them that makes us individuals. Scales are never the problem, they are tools to realise sounds. The problem lies with the individual and their creativity (or lack of).

It's funny actually, I've been exploring using the humble major scale as a means of creating tension without even needing to worry about Melodic Minor Modes or Pentatonics. As long as the phrasing, rhythm and direction is strong, anything goes.

      

viz

^ by the way, you can do a nice little minor pentatonic thing on a 251. Say you’re in C major, so your 2 is Dm and your 5 is G7.  

- Over the Dm you play Am penta (D Dorian feel)
- Over the G7 you play Bbm penta (G superlocrian)
- Over the C you play Bm penta (C Lydian feel)

So you just slide up from fret 5 - 6 - 7 on your minor pentatonic shapes. You have to be careful to stick to the pentatonic notes - some of your traditional extra notes like the b5 in the blues scale don’t work here, and it’s surprisingly hard to avoid playing them!

That Bbm penta is 3 frets up from the G, as @Brad is describing.

Cranky

“Chord tone island” is a good way to put it.

When I’m playing, I can hear it and can venture off the island a wee bit.  But as mere/pure theory, it gets dizzying at times.  I have a tendency to look at everything at once.

Brad

Cranky said:

“Chord tone island” is a good way to put it.

When I’m playing, I can hear it and can venture off the island a wee bit.  But as mere/pure theory, it gets dizzying at times.  I have a tendency to look at everything at once.

No doubt, it can certainly be hard to see the wood for the trees. You're going about it the right way though, spending time and really digging into one area or concept. That will embed the information in a deeper way in your playing and gradually allow you to see the other things as a part of it. It's all the same stuff to be honest, just a different way of looking at it all.

viz said:

^ by the way, you can do a nice little minor pentatonic thing on a 251. Say you’re in C major, so your 2 is Dm and your 5 is G7.  

- Over the Dm you play Am penta (D Dorian feel)
- Over the G7 you play A#m penta (G superlocrian)
- Over the C you play Bm penta (C Lydian feel)

So you just slide up from fret 5 - 6 - 7 on your minor pentatonic shapes. You have to be careful to stick to the pentatonic notes - some of your traditional extra notes like the b5 in the blues scale don’t work here, and it’s surprisingly hard to avoid playing them!

That A#m penta is 3 frets up from the G, as @Brad is describing.

Yeah that's a good one too, nice as the shapes move up chromatically. As you say, gotta be careful with the phrasing mind...

This throws the pattern somewhat, but I like to play the Minor Pentatonic up a tone over the ii chord, really gets the Dorian sound with the 6th that is otherwise missing when playing the Pentatonic off the 5th. 

viz

oh yes, sorry, you're right, the thing I suggested accentuates the 9th not the 6th. Ja.

Brad

viz said:

oh yes, sorry, you're right, the thing I suggested accentuates the 9th not the 6th. Ja.

Still a lovely sound

Cranky

Just spending some time plotting out the info in this thread.  @Brad says “connecting to a chord tone in the next chord.”  Which seems to be the common denominator, and it highlights that fine line between improvisation and planning.  You gotta know what you’re target note(s) are.

Brad

Cranky said:

Just spending some time plotting out the info in this thread.  @Brad says “connecting to a chord tone in the next chord.”  Which seems to be the common denominator, and it highlights that fine line between improvisation and planning.  You gotta know what you’re target note(s) are.

Exactly. It's about engaging with the material in a deeper way and if that means writing lines to get these concepts in the ears and fingers, there is nothing wrong with that at all. All the greats did it, and they know/knew their instrument inside out. None of it is by accident... Well, apparently Chet Baker was sheer intuition and outrageous natural melodic sensibility, but that's another topic entirely. Listen to anyone of them enough and you begin to hear their musical traits when they improvise.

Doing a fair bit of thinking and planning your ideas now, will lead you to using stuff with greater freedom further down the line and it will be more spontaneous. You'll be improvising in a more considered, rather than possibly haphazard way, but it won't feel contrived. Balance it out between prepared stuff and just going for it (to work that part of the brain). However, the hard yards have to be put in, no doubt about it!  

carlos

I let Lao Tzu be my guide. And Oz Noy is supportive, too.

Cranky

Brad said:

Cranky said:

Just spending some time plotting out the info in this thread.  @Brad says “connecting to a chord tone in the next chord.”  Which seems to be the common denominator, and it highlights that fine line between improvisation and planning.  You gotta know what you’re target note(s) are.

Exactly. It's about engaging with the material in a deeper way and if that means writing lines to get these concepts in the ears and fingers, there is nothing wrong with that at all. All the greats did it, and they know/knew their instrument inside out. None of it is by accident... Well, apparently Chet Baker was sheer intuition and outrageous natural melodic sensibility, but that's another topic entirely. Listen to anyone of them enough and you begin to hear their musical traits when they improvise.

Doing a fair bit of thinking and planning your ideas now, will lead you to using stuff with greater freedom further down the line and it will be more spontaneous. You'll be improvising in a more considered, rather than possibly haphazard way, but it won't feel contrived. Balance it out between prepared stuff and just going for it (to work that part of the brain). However, the hard yards have to be put in, no doubt about it!  

Do you or @viz ever use Barry Harris’s chromatic scale stuff?  Does it map onto what we’re talking about here?

Brad

Cranky said:

Do you or @viz ever use Barry Harris’s chromatic scale stuff?  Does it map onto what we’re talking about here?

I don’t. I have briefly looked into the Barry Harris thing, but I think you’ve really got to throw yourself into it and I haven’t got the time to really dig into it and give it the respect it deserves. I don’t think you can really half-arse the BH Method, which is what I’d be doing right now.  

From what little I know of it, it is very systematic and I can see the benefit of it. Those that use it, really dig it. The big thing I think, is where and how to place chromatic notes when there are tone vs semi tones I believe. So as a concept, it’s broadly similar, making conscious musical decisions that will then become unconscious. It’s all universal stuff though…

There’s a guy called Chris Parks, I think his channel is called “things I’ve learned from Barry Harris” which is a great one stop shop for all things BH. 

But if anyone has a deeper understanding of it, please correct me!

viz

I love many of BH’s concepts and use some of them when I’m tinkling about on the piano, but his chromatic scale isn’t one of the things I’m particularly fond of. I prefer the melodies that are in my head. I love his harmonic stuff though - he was a bloody genius.

Brad

 Slight thread diversion but I need to thank @Cranky for the Barry Harris shout, as you sparked my interest in checking his approach out again in more depth  

So, as I vaguely understood initially, the BH chromatic scale is a way of playing chromatics that always places chord tones on strong beats. If we’re not careful when using chromatics, there is always the risk of a line being off, due to the placements of chord tones and chromatics in relation to tones and semi tones of a given key. That’s why we have enclosures on certain beats etc as they line up the chromatics in a coherent way. Same with the BH chromatic scale. Once it’s under the fingers it’s a brilliant, logical way of always being able to put lines together that are rhythmically and melodically tight with beat placement every time.

The trick is to use fragments of the BH chromatic scale along with other devices… intervals, scale tones, arpeggios, pivots etc. 

Bear in mind, Barry Harris was a be-bopper, so I highly suspect he would’ve approached this differently in terms of thinking and playing… as in not thinking Super Locrian. I’d imagine he never used that name or thought in those even if he was using that scale (although I could very well be wrong!)

So for me, I see it as a different thing to using Super Locrian over the V chord. Here, we have to get the ‘sound’ of it in our ears (like say, Dorian, Lydian, etc) and while any of the notes of Super Locrian are fair game over the V(Alt) chord, the principles are the shared. But that’s just a universal approach to improv. Where they differ is that WE need to find logical ways of resolving to the next chord when using Super Locrian, whereas the Barry Harris chromatic scale does it for us.

You could say Barry did the work so we don’t have to

ArchtopDave

Is Barry Harris the guy who conceptualised his harmonic thinking as being in the form of a Cubic Structure? Or was that someone else? Because I remember reading an extensive article ( f it was by Him) some years ago. At the the end of this article, he actually wondered whether his thinking was an interesting process, but which might not actually be of practical benefit in terms of actual music making.

Cranky

When I started reading and watching about Harris a couple months ago I found that it settled into my mind and mind’s ear more readily than a scale.  Playing different scales over different chords within the same song is maddening to me.  It’s too much information that, on the surface, is intellectually disjointed.  But Harris’s chromatic thinking basically says: ok, so put an interesting chord sequence together, and use whatever weird diminished, augmented and 7 chords you want, and you can still inhabit your “chord tone islands”, but then use these chromatic moves to do your island hopping.  

Harris’s chromatic movement might be the same basic content as some corresponding scale, but the content is structured in a way the makes it easier for me to track.

I’ve only been dabbling in jazz — both listening and trying to play a few things — just long enough to realize that there are so many subgenres and that I really only enjoy and want to emulate some of them.  I think I just learned that bebop is one of those jazz subsets; basically I like old stuff or new stuff that pays homage to old stuff.  I like Thelonious, Wes, Joe Pass, Grant Green, early Miles, Paolo Fresu, Kessel, Farmer, Evans.  Jobim’s Waves is probably my favorite jazz album ever so far.  I don’t totally care about shreddy fusion jazz like Matheny, and that’s the kind of stuff where I hear scales being played in my mind’s ears rather than a targeted note being hovered over until just the right moment.  I fully anticipate that this is just my novice take on the matter and I hope to be set straight and redirected sooner or later, but my understanding is my understanding and where I inevitably must begin from.

ArchtopDave

@Cranky  You've started in a good place, The likes of Wes Montgomery, and Kenny Burrell ( and my favourite guitarist Emily Remler) and many others, understood the importance of phrasing in their solo playing. There is loads of mileage in this alone.

Given that you referenced "chord tone islands" above, I think I'm correct about Barry Harris, because this conceptualization rings a bell with me.

Brad

ArchtopDave said:

Is Barry Harris the guy who conceptualised his harmonic thinking as being in the form of a Cubic Structure? Or was that someone else? Because I remember reading an extensive article ( f it was by Him) some years ago. At the the end of this article, he actually wondered whether his thinking was an interesting process, but which might not actually be of practical benefit in terms of actual music making.

I don't know, although he was an incredibly deep thinker so very possibly? The only thing that would make me question otherwise, is the fact that he seemed all about making music straight away. Like the idea of entertaining something that wasn't practical would even enter his thinking? But then it would make sense if he thought that, then jettisoned it for that reason. Dunno... haha

Cranky said:

When I started reading and watching about Harris a couple months ago I found that it settled into my mind and mind’s ear more readily than a scale.  Playing different scales over different chords within the same song is maddening to me.  It’s too much information that, on the surface, is intellectually disjointed.  But Harris’s chromatic thinking basically says: ok, so put an interesting chord sequence together, and use whatever weird diminished, augmented and 7 chords you want, and you can still inhabit your “chord tone islands”, but then use these chromatic moves to do your island hopping.  

Harris’s chromatic movement might be the same basic content as some corresponding scale, but the content is structured in a way the makes it easier for me to track.

I’ve only been dabbling in jazz — both listening and trying to play a few things — just long enough to realize that there are so many subgenres and that I really only enjoy and want to emulate some of them.  I think I just learned that bebop is one of those jazz subsets; basically I like old stuff or new stuff that pays homage to old stuff.  I like Thelonious, Wes, Joe Pass, Grant Green, early Miles, Paolo Fresu, Kessel, Farmer, Evans.  Jobim’s Waves is probably my favorite jazz album ever so far.  I don’t totally care about shreddy fusion jazz like Matheny, and that’s the kind of stuff where I hear scales being played in my mind’s ears rather than a targeted note being hovered over until just the right moment.  I fully anticipate that this is just my novice take on the matter and I hope to be set straight and redirected sooner or later, but my understanding is my understanding and where I inevitably must begin from.

Be mindful that all those guys you like, knew and played scales. Scales are never the issue IMO and the BH chromatic scale is based on scales after all. It's not something that exists on it's own, but it can stand on it's own of that makes sense? But if the Harris approach as you understand it, gets you where you need to go, then run with it.

ArchtopDave said:

@Cranky  You've started in a good place, The likes of Wes Montgomery, and Kenny Burrell ( and my favourite guitarist Emily Remler) and many others, understood the importance of phrasing in their solo playing. There is loads of mileage in this alone.

This in abundance. Rhythm is king and without good phrasing, all the right notes still won't sound right.