Ditching my big amps for small ones (studio)

Ché

I'm doing a lot more recording these days so my Marshall stack and high wattage amps aren't doing it for me. Space is a factor as well as weight, I'd be more keen to gig with them if they were lighter.

My main question would be whether I should opt for a selection of 5w amps or amps in the 15-20w range that I could still potentially gig with.

Ideally I'm looking at the big four tones to satisfy most guitar amp needs.
Vox AC30
Marshall JTM/Plexi
Fender Blackface
Mesa Mark Series

In the 5w range I could opt for:
Vox AC4 Handwired
Marshall Class 5/JTM 1C
Fender SF Champ (had one I shouldn't have sold)
Mesa... (Currently have an MKI but not sure I could get those tones in a smaller package, Studio Preamp or TriAxis maybe.)

15w+ Range could be something like:
Vox AC15
Fender Princeton Reverb
Marshall (not sure here, maybe 1974x)
Mesa TA-30

Part of me just wants to get the TA-30 as that covers most of the tones to some degree but I'm too much of a gear maniac to have just one amp... (I'm not against the MKV but I prefer the simplicity of small single channel amps)

What do you lot recommend? The 15w+ route is a lot more expensive but I'd be selling my current amps to fund them. 5w amps would be fun to crank up, easy to move around/place in different rooms and work with extension cabs if needed.

guitarfishbay

Have you considered a Kemper? For covering classic recording tones it looks ideal and would be cheaper than buying multiple amps. You could then buy whatever single valve amp suits you for gigging. Worth considering as a third approach if you haven't already thought a about it.

Ché

Cheers man; I had thought about modelling but I'd much rather mic an amp up in a room and play around with stuff, I have a reamp box which is pretty fun and allows me the ability to alter settings and mic placement after recording.

I was gonna keep a select amp just for gigging though. Still haven't decided what that would be!

ICBM

The AC4 does not sound remotely like an AC30.

The Class 5 does not sound remotely like a Plexi and has build quality issues. The JTM1 is slightly closer and better made, but the combo speaker is dreadful - get the head and a cab.

The Fender SF Champ is a very nice amp.

The Mesa MkV Mini has just got a great review/demo from Bucket .

An AC15 still doesn't sound exactly like an AC30, but not bad - but is surprisingly large and heavy.

The Fender Princeton Reverb is a truly great amp that happens to be small.

The Marshall 1974 doesn't sound very like a Plexi, but good. Not that small though.

Mesa… the TA-30 still doesn't sound like a Mark, it's its own thing. If you like that it's good, if you want a "Boogie" you still need a Mark really, or maybe an Express.

But a Mesa Express 5:25 will get roughly into the ballpark of all of them (though not that close) and has 5W and 25W settings. The 1x10" version is surprisingly portable, but surprisingly loud. Get the Plus version with the graphic EQ if you can.

The Egnater Tweaker will also get surprisingly close to most of the sounds but is much more of a faff to switch between them; closer to your idea of a single-channel amp.

stickyfiddle

Try a Laney L5T for voxy chime. Doesn't sound the same wound up, but on that clean/chimey/crunchy edge it's very good

longi

Ché said:

I'm doing a lot more recording these days so my Marshall stack and high wattage amps aren't doing it for me. Space is a factor as well as weight, I'd be more keen to gig with them if they were lighter.

My main question would be whether I should opt for a selection of 5w amps or amps in the 15-20w range that I could still potentially gig with.

Ideally I'm looking at the big four tones to satisfy most guitar amp needs.
Vox AC30
Marshall JTM/Plexi
Fender Blackface
Mesa Mark Series

In the 5w range I could opt for:
Vox AC4 Handwired
Marshall Class 5/JTM 1C
Fender SF Champ (had one I shouldn't have sold)
Mesa... (Currently have an MKI but not sure I could get those tones in a smaller package, Studio Preamp or TriAxis maybe.)

15w+ Range could be something like:
Vox AC15
Fender Princeton Reverb
Marshall (not sure here, maybe 1974x)
Mesa TA-30

Part of me just wants to get the TA-30 as that covers most of the tones to some degree but I'm too much of a gear maniac to have just one amp... (I'm not against the MKV but I prefer the simplicity of small single channel amps)

What do you lot recommend? The 15w+ route is a lot more expensive but I'd be selling my current amps to fund them. 5w amps would be fun to crank up, easy to move around/place in different rooms and work with extension cabs if needed.

Doesn't the Line 6 DT25 cover most of those sounds? That could be a winner for you.

ToneControl

Very few of the amps under 25w that I have owned sound anywhere near as good as the classic famous designs from 25-50w.

if 50 years of amp development had been centred on producing 5w amps, this might be a different story, but as it is, the best sounds so far discovered are mostly only possible on these designs, and they can't just be scaled down to 5w

As ICBM says, none of the little amps that are named as a little brother to a classic actually sound like the one they allude to. the AC15 is close, but still amazingly loud and heavy

The only options I would recommend are:

1. use an isolation box containing speaker and mics, with classic 25-50w designs.
2. buy a Kemper or AxeFx2

  

Ché

Hey guys,

Thanks so much for all the suggestions. I think I'm with ToneControl on this one. My third option was to invest in a Riviera Silent Sister/Mesa Cab Clone and get a selection of higher wattage heads. I know Fender have recently released a Deluxe Reverb Head (although a Dual Showman would be great.) Vox do heads (I think) and I already have a Marshall VM head and Mesa Mark I.

I'm not completely deluded in thinking 5w amps are going to cover the same sonic territory as their larger brethren but if they're not really in the ballpark I might as well keep my current amp heads and add to my collection.

richardhomer

25 watt Boogie MkV? Switchable down to ten watts. A whole library of classic sounds. Bucket on here has just got one and seems smitten. Lots of good demos - including Boogie's own - the Cab Clone is built in, though based on demos of these I've seen of those, they're not great. And I say that as a Mesa fan....

57Deluxe

The Messa TA30 can actually do all the sounds you want!

Drew_TNBD

I absolutely would not expect smaller amps to be able to do the same sounds as your bigger ones. They just wont sound the same. Smaller transformers, lower wattage power sections, EL84's or 6V6's which do not sound the same as EL34's or 6L6's or even KT66's, 77's, or 88's for that matter.

I'm not saying that smaller amps are not good. But they wont give you the same feel as a bigger amp. Not even ballpark. If they did, I would've stuck with the Orange Dual Terror and not gone back to larger amps.

If it's volume you're fighting, get an attenuator or an ISO cab.

digitalscream

You'd probably be better off with a Palmer PDI-03 than a Cab Clone. Maybe even a Jettenuator, so you can just take the line feed and apply your own impulses...in fact, that's likely to be the better choices of all the silent options.

Instead of looking at lower-power amps (and thus limiting yourself), why not look for amps which can do those tones but hit the sweet spot earlier (like the Soldano Decatone - I realise it's not what you're after, but it hits the sweet spot at slightly-louder-than-home volumes).

Or...you can do what I was originally going to do and turn your shed into an isolation box - do the room-within-a-room thing, run mic and speaker cables to it from your music room in the house, and you should be able to run your amps at whatever volume is necessary.

ToneControl

ISO cab with full-power amps or amp modelling  were the only solutions I have that work (although now I live in a house with thicker walls, and I added secondary glazing to the windows in my loud room, so no one outside can really hear even my 100w amps

Ché

I agree isolation is the best way to go. I've looked into the Riviera Silent Sister which has a labyrinth system within it that gives the speaker the ability to "breathe". Basically a speaker in a sealed box has pressure either side of it so will not move as it would do in a regular cabinet. The reason many ISO cabs sound boxy. I've checked out the Torpedo systems but the digital element puts me off, I'd much rather put my mic collection to use.

I think investing in larger amps means I can always gig with them if I need to. Granted I'm mainly using them for recording so the Mesa TA-30 is seemingly like a very value oriented option.

I guess as it stands now I would only need a Deluxe Reverb and AC15/30 to round out my amp desires. Hmmmm. Lots of saving to do I think.

The Andertons demo of the CabClone was pulled by Mesa as their unit was defective (according to them and didn't sound as good as it should have). I'll wait till they do another demo but for 200 bones it's worth a punt for silent practice and getting a signal to my computer to use with impulses. ISO can can be used when re-amping. Just thinking about it all sounds exciting. Such a geek hah.

digitalscream

Ché said:

I'll wait till they do another demo but for 200 bones it's worth a punt for silent practice and getting a signal to my computer to use with impulses.

If that's what you want to do, then the Jettenuator does the same job but for about half the price (using the line out rather than the MicSim out).

Cyberlawyer

I have to endorse the Mesa Express 5:25 1x10 combo, it is small and very portable, yet sounds much bigger than it is. It is also hugley versatile if 'in the ball park, is good enough . Personally I prefer the 10" speaker to the 12", it just seems to suit the amp better. It is also easily loud enough to gig.

I have the original without the EQ and from a personal perspective (and as a previous MKV owner) prefer the non-EQ version as it makes the amp so easy to dial in its unreal, you'd have to work pretty hard to get a bad sound out of it. However if you want to get closer to the classic tones you mentioned and don't mind the extra faff when dialing it in the later EQ version is the way to go.

Ché

Jettenuator looks very interesting… scary but interesting. (load boxes failing scares me…my wallet more so!)

I've tried a few Mesa Express amps (can't remember which) but I always had trouble with the gain channels being too muddy. No matter what controls I turned I couldn't brighten them up enough. This was a few years back though so don't hold me to that.

I've chatted to a few people at PMT today about this and played a couple of the amps I mentioned and granted I already have a Mesa and Marshall head/cab I might just save up and grab a Deluxe Reverb RI, Vox AC15 and a Riviera Silent Sister ISO cab. (obviously this will take some serious saving.) 

In other news, the Soul Food is the best overdrive pedal I've tried in my life and I hate overdrive pedals, Amp on the verge of break up + Soul Food is a serious contender for a live rig for sure. 

ICBM

Ché said:

Jettenuator looks very interesting… scary but interesting. (load boxes failing scares me…my wallet more so!)

Load boxes are less likely to fail than speakers.

ToneControl

The Riviera Silent Sister ISO cab looks like the Randall ISO12, I had a Randall: the design sounded good recorded, but since it was single-walled, let lots of noise into the room, and it was huge even though it only contained one driver, which meant it was inflexible with different amps

I haven't tried the Rivera - This review: http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Rivera_Silent_Sister_Isolation_Cabinet_Review
says it reduces the external volume by about 30dB. That's not quiet enough to hear the mix while you record

The Hermit cab has 2 layers, and is made to be quiet

The custom made one I have is much quieter, with a 30w or 50w amp played into it, all you can hear in the room are the strings, and the output transformer if there are a few loose windings
http://s809.photobucket.com/user/toneuk/library/Oak Iso cab
Made of oak outer case, hemp insulation, then an inner box of MDF, we experimented with minimal baffles: in teh end the ones that are simply a square of wood worked best: the mic is so close, there is no bass loss liek you would hear a few feet away, and more chance to get movement of air in the ISO box, and 3 drivers can be fitted at once, each with its own microphone

I can advise that when recording, it is much easier to play and record without a random 80dB coming out of a poor ISO cab in the same room

To Anyone who wants an Iso cab, I would sell mine now - I have secondary glazing and Pro amp sims, so don't need Iso boxes anymore


personally I think this is much better made and functional than any commercial offering

Ché

That's beautiful work mate, (I work for a bespoke joinery company so something like that would definitely appeal to me and be quite easy to knock up). When micing multiple speakers, do you not incur phase issues with mics picking up out of phase signals from the rear of the speakers?

The baffle stands are a genius idea btw.

I understand the Silent Sister design does let air (and therefor sound) out of the cab which I can deal with to some extent. I'd be more interested in the tone produced. As far as I'm aware, having a speaker in a sealed box with foam is like playing in a tiny room with lots of absorption soaking up high end frequencies, so lots of treble loss and a resulting boom/boxy sound. Of course if you're micing super close to the grill this may not be the case. You obviously have far more knowledge and experience on the subject as I'm only going on my knowledge of acoustics.

ToneControl

the idea is to use 3 different speakers, normally one at a time, in a much larger volume of air, rather than 3 smaller, separate iso cabs
this one is less boxy sounding than the commercial ones, they have very little volume compared to this
Sound was never "boxy" to me, but I guess better quality acoustic foam might be good
Since there is no grill, you can mic up even closer into the cone
I found that all I needed was a bit of EQ and a multi band compressor to get a really good sound