Why I went back to real amps.

sgosden

Danny1969 said:

One trick I use with amps and recording is coming out the pre amp / effects loop send  into the PC with a speaker sim on the track. Then when I've nailed the part send the audio back to the effects loop return socket, crank the amp and mic it up and record it back in. This process means you only need the amp cranked for the 4 minute duration of the song, not for the 2 hours it might take to get the part right. 

I think my main problem is digital and companies insistence on making the whole unit digital when most overdrive and distortion effects  can be make for peanuts in their original analog form. I like digital reverb and delay on a parallel path but when the whole chain is digital it just seems not as present and real as some analog pedals into a valve amp. 

Another great thing about amps is value. All the 5 amps I have brought over the last 7 years are now worth more than I paid for them. All the digital stuff I've brought over the last 5 years has lost at least a third of it's value. 

Then there's the longevity issue. There's not many valve amps get written off (Marshall TSL and such aside) Even a PT change can generally be done for less than half the value of the amp. Most faults are well under a ton to fix. 

How much is a Helix or Quad Cortex board ? can you get one as a service part ? Being in the repair industry that kinda thing is always on my mind. 

Are the amps actually worth more, and would they sell ? (genuine question, not being a jerk) 

Just from looking at FS prices and how long certain things have been available/ having prices dropped. It seems valve amps are getting harder and harder to move on. 

I do fully agree on the service element. A dead computer is just a throw away and start again job in most cases. 

Nerine

sgosden said:

Are the amps actually worth more, and would they sell ? (genuine question, not being a jerk) 

Just from looking at FS prices and how long certain things have been available/ having prices dropped. It seems valve amps are getting harder and harder to move on. 

I do fully agree on the service element. A dead computer is just a throw away and start again job in most cases. 

In my experience, If you buy used, an amp will basically remain at that value in most cases. 

I don't think I've ever lost on an amp I've bought used. 

If you buy something digital it will eventually become obsolete and therefore e-waste (although I think this is a slower process now digital products are almost indistinguishable from analogue ones in certain scenarios). That's pretty much unavoidable. It'll still likely function but will probably be completely abandoned for support, updates, etc. 

Fractal stuff seems to hold its value better than most digital stuff and older Axe Fx's are now basically unsellable or worth next to nothing. That's just how it is. 

It'll be interesting to see the used prices of the Quad Cortex and the Tonemaster Pro in the coming months. I think they'll drop like a stone. 

Danny1969

sgosden said:

Danny1969 said:

snip

Another great thing about amps is value. All the 5 amps I have brought over the last 7 years are now worth more than I paid for them. All the digital stuff I've brought over the last 5 years has lost at least a third of it's value. 

Are the amps actually worth more, and would they sell ? (genuine question, not being a jerk) 

Just from looking at FS prices and how long certain things have been available/ having prices dropped. It seems valve amps are getting harder and harder to move on. 

I do fully agree on the service element. A dead computer is just a throw away and start again job in most cases. 

Well the amps I have were brought pretty cheap to be fair 

Bugera BC30 as new - £220
Fender Hot Rod as new £340
Fender Hot Rod well used £220 
Mesa Boogie F-30 £400 
Marshall M100 I think 2 x 12 valve combo ..budget range   £140 

My local rehearsal room wanted the Bugera and I could have sold the Hot Rods at least 3 times or more and made a profit. The Mesa is more an oddity I think, I repaired it for a customer and brought it myself because I repaired it in a way it wouldn't go faulty again. 
The Marshall was a bargain. An all valve 2 x 12 combo for peanuts really. 

willo

When I tried to sell a JCM800 2x12, most shops didn't want it on trade-in. The large valve amps were hard to sell in their opinion.

As for value, I'll lose money if and when the Helix is retired but I'll have had about 10 years' worth out of it by then, no recording interface, no repairs/servicing, no new pedals, no new valves etc. So I don't really consider either valves or modelling being bad for value, provided you're playing enough.

Jonathanthomas83

Taken a massive hit on both Kemper's and my old amps, JCM 800, Mesa Dual Rec, Hi-Tone & Reeves etc...only think that's kept its worth is my Fractal.

ElectricXII

The only valve amp I've lost money on so far was a Fender Blues Junior III. I think I got about £150 less than what I paid for it new in 2012. I tend to buy amps secondhand, so they've done most of their depreciating already. The Blues Junior was the only exception.

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

Interesting story from the OP. I too have gone from an all modelling set up - HX Stomp followed by a Pod Go straight into the band's PA, just using the band's normal floor monitors - back to using an amp. However, my amp (TM Princeton Reverb) is technically a modelling amp, albeit a very limited one designed to function exactly like the valve equivalent.

My story and thoughts are quite different to the OP.

Basically I didn't go back because I thought it sounded any better/preferable using an amp vs modeller - if anything the big name amp modelling units are streets ahead of normal amps in terms of versatility, adaptability, and ease of use especially in a live situation. I know that using a traditional amp is massively more restrictive in terms of options and versatility, and getting the live tone dialled in takes a lot more work in terms of adjusting levels and EQ to the room etc.

The reason I went back is because I didn't enjoy just playing for fun at home. Firing up the modeller, attaching all the cables, playing with headphones, having to get the laptop and USB out when I wanted to really have proper edit with settings etc, I just found it all such a faff! During l the 3+ years that I was purely digital it got to a point where I'd completely stopped actually playing at home plugged in. I'd only ever practice unplugged. The simple pleasures of just plugging straight into a basic amp with a few knobs on the front had become complete absent in my life, and I missed it.

I've now rediscovered that joy, and happily lose hours practicing (aka noodling away!) just plugged straight into the front of the Princeton with attenuator. I just my playing a lot more, despite the lack of options and restrictions the format naturally imposes.

Voxman

I've been playing for well over 50 yrs and was brought up on valve amps.  I've owned loads of classic amps including a Vox AC30 6 input, JCM800, JTM45, 2x10" 1958 18w 'mini-bluesbreaker' ,100w Plexi Super Lead, 4x12 cabs, Selmer Zodiac Treble n Bass 50 MkII, Orange 30w head, Sound City 50w head, Fender Blackface and Silverface 2x12.  I've played through loads of other different amps inc Fender Bassman, Mesa Boogie, various custom amps etc. These mainly all have three things in common - they were all very loud, very heavy, and were great at 'their' sound but only when cranked up. 

I still have 6 amps: Laney VC30-210 w. 1x12 GS112VE extn cab, Laney Cub 12R with Vintage 30, Marshall JCM2000 DSL401 w. Classic Lead 80, Marshall 1x12 Mk1 Valvestate 80v '8080', Vox Valvetronix AD120VTX w. 2x12 AD212 extn cab & VC12 floor controller, and a 1x12 Vox Valvetronix AD60VT.  And I still have a conventional pedal board. Without doubt, the most versatile and overall best sounding rig and my favourite for gigging was the AD120VTX rig. 

But at my age and with my bad back, I just can't carry any of this stuff around anymore.  I have a Line 6 Pod Go that's compact & light & is great for noodling at home through headphones, taking to a quieter band practice or if I need to travel very light on a tube to a gig.  But the problem with modern MFX is they are too menu driven, too complex, and not easy to tweak live on stage.  I like the simplicity & immediacy of real knobs and dials.  I need something I can carry, that's gig worthy, easy to set up/pack up, is easy to use and tweak on stage, that can give me a good wide range of consistent tones and FX without swamping me with option paralysis, and yet still feels, responds and sounds very valve like. 

So for the last 7-8 years or so my gigging rig has been simpler old tech - a Vox Valvetronix Tonelab SE or LE played straight through FOH or more recently through 1 or 2 Headrush FRFR 108's.  Real knobs, dials, heavy duty PSU with a standard mains plug, tough construction, and a real valve that's used like a power valve.  It's just the best gigging solution I've found. Patch naming means I can easily set up patches in song order, or use as a basic pedal board in stomp mode, and for a clean 'global' volume boost I tag on a BBE Boosta Grand between the Tonelab and PA/Headrush units.  There's just no way that I'd ever go back to schlapping big heavy amps and have to do all the maintenance that goes with valve amps like caps, valves, pots etc. And because it's old tech, it's very inexpensive to replace or to buy a back-up. 

But probably everyone of us has had, or is still on, their own gear journey.  The trick is simply to find the best solution that works for you and learning how to get the best out of it, be it a modern or old MFX, or a valve, solid state or modelling amp with a pedalboard.  There's no right or wrong here, and particularly as we get older considerations like size, weight & simplicity become major factors.  And here's an absolute truth that I've learned over 50+ years of playing/gigging.  No matter how anal/purist/fussy we all are about sound & feel...the audience doesn't know any difference and doesn't care; they just want to be entertained!    

Littlejonny

Lots of wisdom here. When I’m lugging my Hot Rod Deluxe up a flight of stairs I always think I’m being silly and I should just DI…but it makes me want to vomit. 

I just want to say that you really have to trust the sound person if you DI. I played a show recently and the sound man was a c@&t. He made us DI and then basically made us inaudible. 

I also like the way with an amp, the sound comes out of one point, and is then reinforced with monitors. I don’t like with DI that the stage is just awash with your sound. 

Winny_Pooh

Voxman said:

I've been playing for well over 50 yrs and was brought up on valve amps.  I've owned loads of classic amps including a Vox AC30 6 input, JCM800, JTM45, 2x10" 1958 18w 'mini-bluesbreaker' ,100w Plexi Super Lead, 4x12 cabs, Selmer Zodiac Treble n Bass 50 MkII, Orange 30w head, Sound City 50w head, Fender Blackface and Silverface 2x12.  I've played through loads of other different amps inc Fender Bassman, Mesa Boogie, various custom amps etc. These mainly all have three things in common - they were all very loud, very heavy, and were great at 'their' sound but only when cranked up. 

I still have 6 amps: Laney VC30-210 w. 1x12 GS112VE extn cab, Laney Cub 12R with Vintage 30, Marshall JCM2000 DSL401 w. Classic Lead 80, Marshall 1x12 Mk1 Valvestate 80v '8080', Vox Valvetronix AD120VTX w. 2x12 AD212 extn cab & VC12 floor controller, and a 1x12 Vox Valvetronix AD60VT.  And I still have a conventional pedal board. Without doubt, the most versatile and overall best sounding rig and my favourite for gigging was the AD120VTX rig. 

But at my age and with my bad back, I just can't carry any of this stuff around anymore.  I have a Line 6 Pod Go that's compact & light & is great for noodling at home through headphones, taking to a quieter band practice or if I need to travel very light on a tube to a gig.  But the problem with modern MFX is they are too menu driven, too complex, and not easy to tweak live on stage.  I like the simplicity & immediacy of real knobs and dials.  I need something I can carry, that's gig worthy, easy to set up/pack up, is easy to use and tweak on stage, that can give me a good wide range of consistent tones and FX without swamping me with option paralysis, and yet still feels, responds and sounds very valve like. 

So for the last 7-8 years or so my gigging rig has been simpler old tech - a Vox Valvetronix Tonelab SE or LE played straight through FOH or more recently through 1 or 2 Headrush FRFR 108's.  Real knobs, dials, heavy duty PSU with a standard mains plug, tough construction, and a real valve that's used like a power valve.  It's just the best gigging solution I've found. Patch naming means I can easily set up patches in song order, or use as a basic pedal board in stomp mode, and for a clean 'global' volume boost I tag on a BBE Boosta Grand between the Tonelab and PA/Headrush units.  There's just no way that I'd ever go back to schlapping big heavy amps and have to do all the maintenance that goes with valve amps like caps, valves, pots etc. And because it's old tech, it's very inexpensive to replace or to buy a back-up. 

But probably everyone of us has had, or is still on, their own gear journey.  The trick is simply to find the best solution that works for you and learning how to get the best out of it, be it a modern or old MFX, or a valve, solid state or modelling amp with a pedalboard.  There's no right or wrong here, and particularly as we get older considerations like size, weight & simplicity become major factors.  And here's an absolute truth that I've learned over 50+ years of playing/gigging.  No matter how anal/purist/fussy we all are about sound & feel...the audience doesn't know any difference and doesn't care; they just want to be entertained!    

Some wisdom there. But it sounds like you traded tone for convenience. Not everyone needs a versatile rig, just the most toneful that works with a bassist and drummer.

TheBigDipper

Voxman said:

<snip>
But probably everyone of us has had, or is still on, their own gear journey.  The trick is simply to find the best solution that works for you and learning how to get the best out of it, be it a modern or old MFX, or a valve, solid state or modelling amp with a pedalboard.  There's no right or wrong here, and particularly as we get older considerations like size, weight & simplicity become major factors.  And here's an absolute truth that I've learned over 50+ years of playing/gigging.  No matter how anal/purist/fussy we all are about sound & feel...the audience doesn't know any difference and doesn't care; they just want to be entertained!    

Good post and I can only agree with this^^^^.

We all have different reasons for playing, different ways we express ourselves and different ways we get satisfaction from it. There's no "right or wrong". If it's right for you, then it's right.

Other players will come to different conclusions, because they are different and their situation is different. Guitars, amps, pedals, gear in general....  They're tools for making the best music an individual is capable of for some of us. They are objects where the "joy of ownership" is the primary personal win for others. Sometimes both exist within the same person. 

I'm in the "amps" category, mainly because - although I desire the convenience of modellers and profilers - I  lack the patience, skill and desire to put the hours in to get what I want from them when I can just plug in and play, twiddle a few knobs and put a smile on my face. It's taken me 4-5 attempts over the last 10 years to convert to modellers before finally (I hope) being at peace with the fact I'm an amps guy and should probably stop trying. 

NickB

I have been going back and forth between modelling and valve amps. I started off with the Pod bean, went back to my Hot Rod Deville. When the helix LT came out I bought that and went all in with a Yamaha DXR10. I quickly found after a few gigs that I really didn’t like it so sold the DXR and bought a Fryette Powerstation to run the LT through a 2x10 cab. Better but still not the same as running a proper valve amp. I sold the lot and for a couple of years just used pedals and valve amps. 

Moving on, I now have a HX stomp and built a pedal board around it. I bought the Powerstation again so I could beef up my Romany 12 figuring that I could use the Stomp amp sims if the Romany went down at a gig or send a line to my DAW for recording.

Even through the Powerstation and a 1x12 cab the amp sims in the Stomp sound 1 dimensional compared to a real world valve amp. You don’t really get the symbiotic relationship that happens between guitar, amp and speaker if that makes sense. 

Aflf

I fully can understand the OPs thoughts and doubts. I've been playing in broad-range cover bands from the early '80s on. To me the digital stuff has always been a tool to achieve the different sounds and effects of the original songs as close as possible. I've been using since 1996 the Roland GP-100 into the Line-In of my 2x12" combo amp and it worked out great. 

In a live situation (with other guitar(s), keyboards etc.) you won't hear all the sound subtleties that you hear during dialing in the sounds at home or in the rehearsal room. As long as the live sounds were in close range of Fender, Vox, Mesa, Marshall etc. it worked. It didn't have to be a 100 % identical sound.
I'Ve been checking out all the other digital stuff since then (incl. Line 6 AX2, H&K Zentera) and a constant issue has been the different (I would say partly lack of) freshness, liveliness, vibrancy and cut-through of the digital sounds. Like so many I've been checking out a lot of IRs and amplifying stuff (active monitors, power amp + cabinet ...) to find a satisfiable solution. I did with DV Mark stuff.
I went the Fractal way 15 years ago and never looked back. Now with the FM9 I'm able to get all the sounds in a very satisfiable quality with the liveliness and cut-through I long was looking for. It's much easier to dial in now but still not as easy as your real amp with its limited controls.

If I only need some basic sounds (clean, crunch, overdrive/lead) I'm still free to use one of my real amps. In a band mix you won't tell the difference if I'm playing digital or analog. At home with no other noise sources I can tell the difference, still.

Petepassion

At age 58 and 5’ 6” my Orange 4x12 is ridiculous, I can only just carry it, it is far heavier than my previous jcm 800 4x12. So I took my recently purchased Dr Z Maz 18 combo to the last rehearsal to try along side the half stack. It’s a great sounding amp, but then I plugged into my AC50 and Orange 4x12…bloody hell, this rig is another level! A truly beast of a sound…nothing can hang with this when it’s cooking.
   I will suffer the bad back and impracticality for that sound.

rze99

A guy I'm working with in a band was really pissing me off with his bad use of pedals and sims. 

It's mostly his fault not the effects - he just didn't know what he was doing and was constantly fiddling so I ended up having to fix his sound. Always sounded fake.

So I said, "I've just had an old amp serviced and it'd be perfect for what you're doing. Try it". It's a modded Fender Super 60 valve amp with master volume from the '90s.  It's heavy but it sounds great. So I bought to rehearsal set it up and plugged him in and he said "Fuck that sounds amazing - classic guitar sound" so I said "please keep it and use it as a loaner from me."  Now, he turns up with it, plugs in and sounds great every time. it's such a relief for us both!

ICBM

Roland said:

I’ve hated valve amps since the 70s. A stream of failures, not so much valves (that’s fixable within minutes), but sockets, capacitors, resistors … In consequence I like the reliability of digital

Once again, I cannot for the life of me understand why "not digital" must mean "valve".

*Analogue* solid-state is the best of both worlds. Lighter and more reliable than valve, more immediate and 'real' than digital.

I own, and like, all three types of technology, but if I'm going to be carrying my own gear to gigs I'll be taking the analogue solid-state amp every time.

Danny1969

Petepassion said:

At age 58 and 5’ 6” my Orange 4x12 is ridiculous, I can only just carry it, it is far heavier than my previous jcm 800 4x12. So I took my recently purchased Dr Z Maz 18 combo to the last rehearsal to try along side the half stack. It’s a great sounding amp, but then I plugged into my AC50 and Orange 4x12…bloody hell, this rig is another level! A truly beast of a sound…nothing can hang with this when it’s cooking.
   I will suffer the bad back and impracticality for that sound.

Good tone is heavy to carry

@Roland ;

I hope you continue to have a good experience of digital and it's reliability but digital stuff fails too. Chris from this forum brought down an Axe-FX to my studio to show me once. We turned it on in the live rom but it wouldn't boot up, Eprom had scrambled it's self. So that was the end of that demo. 

My mate and studio intern was 2nd guitarist for a very popular Who tribute bad and brought a Helix. One night at soundcheck it just wouldn't boot up. Luckily this was in his hometown (about the only gig that was) so he was able to go home and get amp amp. 

My Pod Go went wrong recently. It just refused to come out of snap shot mode despite everything I tried. In the end I had to go through a load of trial and error procedures to get it out of it. Then I decided to upgrade the firmware and the thing just hung and refused to boot back up. It then took a further hour of going into recovery mode and mucking about to get back to where i was in the first place. It's only ever done about 30 gigs !

With complexity comes unreliability. A well designed class D active PA speaker will never be as reliable in the long term as a well designed linear AB powered speaker. A modern digital modeller is built much in the same was as a laptop motherboard. With a multi layed PCB and BGA VLSI chips. Are laptops reliable long term ? ... 

Always have some kind of backup. I carry a little battery powered Korg amp farm thing in my bag. I've done gigs with it so I know it will get me through if the amp / modeller I'm using breaks. 

Cirrus

Aflf said:

In a live situation (with other guitar(s), keyboards etc.) you won't hear all the sound subtleties that you hear during dialing in the sounds at home or in the rehearsal room. As long as the live sounds were in close range of Fender, Vox, Mesa, Marshall etc. it worked. It didn't have to be a 100 % identical sound.

I actually find my experience is rather different (though it's all so subjective, so please don't take this as an attack!);

Compared with playing at home, I find the stuff that really matters to me - the dynamic response of the rig such as pick attack, onset of distortion, whether the neck position tends to sound glassy & clear or collapses into muddy low end, the differences between guitars, the overall EQ character of the rig - are all much more apparent to me when I'm using them in band situations, alongside drums and bass and vocals. Because once there's other sounds, the little differences in dynamic and EQ response mean a sound either sitting where you want it to or not. At home those kind of differences feel minimised.

To give two examples

-At home when recording the Helix AC30 model through a nice IR sounds absolutely perfect to me. Just like the real thing. Happy to use it. But I couldn't get it to work for me at band practice, the low end was always either too prominent or too thin, I was forever tweaking things. Eventually I just gave up, brought a real ac30 and there it was - a sound that blended nicely with the bass guitar and drums.

- the comparison between two of my guitars, a gretsch solid body with humbuckers and a gibson solid body with humbuckers. At home they're much of a muchness, and I'm never really clear why I'd particularly use one over the other. At band practice and gigs, the difference is clear; the Gretsch is much more spanky, twangy, tight and low middy. The Gibson has a much more open midrange and a thicker warmer sound.

TeleMaster

Voxman said:

I've been playing for well over 50 yrs and was brought up on valve amps.  I've owned loads of classic amps including a Vox AC30 6 input, JCM800, JTM45, 2x10" 1958 18w 'mini-bluesbreaker' ,100w Plexi Super Lead, 4x12 cabs, Selmer Zodiac Treble n Bass 50 MkII, Orange 30w head, Sound City 50w head, Fender Blackface and Silverface 2x12.  I've played through loads of other different amps inc Fender Bassman, Mesa Boogie, various custom amps etc. These mainly all have three things in common - they were all very loud, very heavy, and were great at 'their' sound but only when cranked up. 

I still have 6 amps: Laney VC30-210 w. 1x12 GS112VE extn cab, Laney Cub 12R with Vintage 30, Marshall JCM2000 DSL401 w. Classic Lead 80, Marshall 1x12 Mk1 Valvestate 80v '8080', Vox Valvetronix AD120VTX w. 2x12 AD212 extn cab & VC12 floor controller, and a 1x12 Vox Valvetronix AD60VT.  And I still have a conventional pedal board. Without doubt, the most versatile and overall best sounding rig and my favourite for gigging was the AD120VTX rig. 

But at my age and with my bad back, I just can't carry any of this stuff around anymore.  I have a Line 6 Pod Go that's compact & light & is great for noodling at home through headphones, taking to a quieter band practice or if I need to travel very light on a tube to a gig.  But the problem with modern MFX is they are too menu driven, too complex, and not easy to tweak live on stage.  I like the simplicity & immediacy of real knobs and dials.  I need something I can carry, that's gig worthy, easy to set up/pack up, is easy to use and tweak on stage, that can give me a good wide range of consistent tones and FX without swamping me with option paralysis, and yet still feels, responds and sounds very valve like. 

So for the last 7-8 years or so my gigging rig has been simpler old tech - a Vox Valvetronix Tonelab SE or LE played straight through FOH or more recently through 1 or 2 Headrush FRFR 108's.  Real knobs, dials, heavy duty PSU with a standard mains plug, tough construction, and a real valve that's used like a power valve.  It's just the best gigging solution I've found. Patch naming means I can easily set up patches in song order, or use as a basic pedal board in stomp mode, and for a clean 'global' volume boost I tag on a BBE Boosta Grand between the Tonelab and PA/Headrush units.  There's just no way that I'd ever go back to schlapping big heavy amps and have to do all the maintenance that goes with valve amps like caps, valves, pots etc. And because it's old tech, it's very inexpensive to replace or to buy a back-up. 

But probably everyone of us has had, or is still on, their own gear journey.  The trick is simply to find the best solution that works for you and learning how to get the best out of it, be it a modern or old MFX, or a valve, solid state or modelling amp with a pedalboard.  There's no right or wrong here, and particularly as we get older considerations like size, weight & simplicity become major factors.  And here's an absolute truth that I've learned over 50+ years of playing/gigging.  No matter how anal/purist/fussy we all are about sound & feel...the audience doesn't know any difference and doesn't care; they just want to be entertained!    

Your post is very reasonable and brings up a lot of issues that I have with the weight of stuff and all and how to address it. I still haven't figured it out and it's partly because of my inability to budge on quality so I admire anyone who is able to come to terms with this stuff. 

I got rid of my BE50 and 2x12 cab in favour of a Small Box combo after going lightweight, and being unsatisfied with a Milkman pedal board amp with pedals and a lightweight cab. This was after trying the Blackstar St James, Katana etc etc and so on. I've had the Axe 2, 3, FM3, Quad Cortex, Kemper, Kemper Stage, multiple Helix. I've also had a few of the older digital solutions like the Mustang, Eleven Rack and the older Pod. The problem I have is that a lot of the cheaper, older stuff just doesn't sound very good and nothing compares to a quality real amp. If I had to go completely ampless I'd go for something more modern and insure it.

I've heard stuff like the Vox Tonelab being used and personally it's really not for me. I've always found the older stuff to sound brittle and thin and it's only quite recently (last 10 years or so) that modelling has really become honed with the higher end stuff like Helix, Kemper, Fractal etc and even then it doesn't compare to a really good amp in the room. Mic'd up vs modeller and through a PA it's all pretty similar but in the room vs an amp it's night and day.

Like you say the audience generally doesn't care, but I care. I also know that there are always people in the audience who do care, and I shouldn't care but I don't want one of my peers/fellow musicians dismissing me for something as simple as not having decent tone. Playing well can cover poor tone but it only goes so far to someone who knows.

I've also owned many Friedman, Carol-Ann, vintage and modern Fenders like the Bassman, Deluxe Reverb, Princeton Reissues, Marshall, Orange and so on, and these amps have a certain quality to them that cheaper, lighter amps and set ups just don't have. I can't play a Marshall MG or something because I think I've been spoiled in this regard and I can't go back. 

I know that one day I will be in this position, it's probably not that far off considering I've had three back ops now. But if I had to go completely ampless I'd probably go for something like an FM9 because of the quality of it, but I'd also consider fucking it off completely because I find in-ears, FRFR etc awful to listen to and prefer stage monitoring preferable but still a soulless experience in comparison. So if I could never play a roaring amp on stage again because of injury, age, the changing landscape of music, or I had to use something that just doesn't have that inherent quality I'm used to I think that would be the end of it for me. It would be different if it was my job, but it's really just a busy hobby. 

JohnCordy

@Nerine I did a video on this today (well filmed it a few days back). I think it's true that by the time you factor in having some stage volume, it's not that different in terms of size/weight.....I gigged a two rock classic reverb signature for the first time last night though, and it is a bit weird to say but I feel like the gig the week previous which was digital into the fender tone master fr12 wasn't much different all things considered.....