How to write out a tritone in a chord chart

andyg_prs

Hi,  

Probably a very basic question, but what is the best way to write out a tritone?.....I'm writing our chords for one of my songs got the band......so we have  Am,  Bm,  C,   D,   Am,  Bm,  C,  F tritone - or Fb5?

And seeing as I'm here, does anyone know the shortcut for the little triangle used to represent a major 7?

Thanks,
Andy

Littlejonny

Isn’t the triangle symbol produced by  ‘alt-j’ as in the band? I believe that’s where they got their name, one of their lyrics being ‘triangles are my favourite shape’.

in a chord chart, I would prefer to see the actual notes written for the tritone in proper notation. I usually use manuscript paper to make chord charts and notate any melodic bits or chords that are very specific voicings.

Another possibility (and probably a more common way) would be Fb5(no 3rd).

Tannin

A chord with a tritone in it is a diminished chord. Fdim or F° (if it contains the double flat 7th) or Fø (if it has a standard flat 7th). 

andyg_prs

Tannin said:

A chord with a tritone in it is a diminished chord. Fdim or F° (if it contains the double flat 7th) or Fø (if it has a standard flat 7th). 

I'm just playing F5 - F, B, F (octave) then F, Bb, F

Blueingreen

andyg_prs said:

Tannin said:

A chord with a tritone in it is a diminished chord. Fdim or F° (if it contains the double flat 7th) or Fø (if it has a standard flat 7th). 

I'm just playing F5 - F, B, F (octave) then F, Bb, F

Not sure any very orthodox chord notation works. Something like F(b5) No 3rd. Or Fdim (no 3rd)

Tannin

I don't think there is any recognised way to write powerchords, be that using a perfect or a flat 5th.  About all you can do is add (no 3) to the F or Fdim. For that matter, purists refuse to accept that a powerchord is a chord at all. (A nonsensical stance in my book - if  one can happily accept a rootless C#7 (no 5) but balk at a powerchord, well, you've gone beyond splitting hairs.)

In this instance, maybe the best you can do is F°(no 3 and F(no 3). In support of this notion is the fact that playing a diminished chord on (say) the root followed by the normal root chord is common. 

octatonic

Tannin said:

I don't think there is any recognised way to write powerchords, be that using a perfect or a flat 5th.  About all you can do is add (no 3) to the F or Fdim. For that matter, purists refuse to accept that a powerchord is a chord at all. (A nonsensical stance in my book - if  one can happily accept a rootless C#7 (no 5) but balk at a powerchord, well, you've gone beyond splitting hairs.)

In this instance, maybe the best you can do is F°(no 3 and F(no 3). In support of this notion is the fact that playing a diminished chord on (say) the root followed by the normal root chord is common. 

There is.
There are three that I know of.

C5 indicates a (C G) dyad.
Or 'C no 3rd'.
Or you can write 'C ind' (for indeterminate).

The issue will be that writing 'C b5' indicates a c major chord with a b5 (C E Gb) not (C Gb).
The only way I can think of doing it would be to write 'C ind, b5'.

Almost no one knows about 'ind' though, only music theory geeks and not many of them.
So you'd have to explain it which somewhat negates the use of having a shorthand way of doing it.

digitalkettle

octatonic said:

Tannin said:

I don't think there is any recognised way to write powerchords, be that using a perfect or a flat 5th.  About all you can do is add (no 3) to the F or Fdim. For that matter, purists refuse to accept that a powerchord is a chord at all. (A nonsensical stance in my book - if  one can happily accept a rootless C#7 (no 5) but balk at a powerchord, well, you've gone beyond splitting hairs.)

In this instance, maybe the best you can do is F°(no 3 and F(no 3). In support of this notion is the fact that playing a diminished chord on (say) the root followed by the normal root chord is common. 

There is.
There are three that I know of.

C5 indicates a (C G) dyad.
Or 'C no 3rd'.
Or you can write 'C ind' (for indeterminate).

The issue will be that writing 'C b5' indicates a c major chord with a b5 (C E Gb) not (C Gb).
The only way I can think of doing it would be to write 'C ind, b5'.

Almost no one knows about 'ind' though, only music theory geeks and not many of them.
So you'd have to explain it which somewhat negates the use of having a shorthand way of doing it.

Lemmy was right! Maybe we really do need the 'little diagrams with the dots'?

andyg_prs

Hey guys, thanks - makes me feel slightly better about my confusion.  I think I'll use Fb5 for shorthand and explain to the band.  In reality this is a tiny little motif that I use throughout the song when changing sections.....and I am actually playing an F5 powerchord (as commonly understood by guitarists) for four stabs then dropping the B to a Bb for 4 stabs......

I might subject you to a recording of it......it's a 7-piece  country / Americana band and the feel of the song has changed completely from what I envisaged when I first wrote it and was in a prog rock / metal band!

andyg_prs

Littlejonny said:

Isn’t the triangle symbol produced by  ‘alt-j’ as in the band? I believe that’s where they got their name, one of their lyrics being ‘triangles are my favourite shape’.

Do you mean holding the alt and j at the same time?  Didn't work for me, nor any combinations of alt/shift/crtl and j.

I'll have to look up the band!

digitalkettle

Although Fb is an unlikely note, I'd sleep a lot more soundly if you used F(b5)...and I'm still worried about that third

Blaendulais

Bb ..F.  What about Bb5 second inversion?

Cranky

Tritones befuddled me for a long time until I realized the flat 5 trick (or Lydian, as I initially thought of it).

And then there’s either the push or pull resolution.  Eg F-B to E-C or F-B to F#-Bb.  I’m probably saying this push/pull part wrong.

There’s no other type of tritone, yeah?  They’re always going to be flat fifths of each other?

digitalkettle

Cranky said:

...
There’s no other type of tritone, yeah?  They’re always going to be flat fifths of each other?

Tritone = three tones = six semitones = b5...or maybe a #4*

* read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone#Augmented_fourth_and_diminished_fifth

Cranky

digitalkettle said:

Cranky said:

...
There’s no other type of tritone, yeah?  They’re always going to be flat fifths of each other?

Tritone = three tones = six semitones = b5...or maybe a #4*

* read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone#Augmented_fourth_and_diminished_fifth

Right.  So it will depend on the key signature as to whether it’s written as a #4 or b5?

But luckily for us guitar players it doesn’t matter 

viz

Cranky said:

Right.  So it will depend on the key signature as to whether it’s written as a #4 or b5?

Yes. A tritone is exactly half an octave, so if you play, say, B to F and then F to B, you have two stacked tritones making an octave. If one’s a 5th, the other has to be a 4th. So if you’re in C major, B-C-D-E-F is a b5, whereas F-G-A-B is a #4. 

Key signatures aside, if you play the maj7 and the upper 4 (or 11) of a key (which is a V7 in 1st inversion), it’s a b5. But if you play it as the more unusual 4th-7th diad (a V7 in 3rd inversion), it’s a #4.

The first one resolves inwards to the 1st and 3rd of the major tonic. The second one resolves outwards to the 3rd and upper octave. It can’t resolve inwards because there’s not enough space - you can only fit the 5th and 6th in there, which is no use. 

——————

There’s also a way of telling when it’s on the Tonic. 

In The Simpsons, the first 3 notes, there’s clearly an aug 4, because there’s no conceivable P4, whereas there is a P5. Same as in Satriani’s Flying in a Blue Dream - the first chord. In both you have a major 3rd and an augmented 4th, but nothing in between. So the #4 replaces the P4. 

Whereas in Satriani’s Crushing Day, in C minor, you can hear the perfect 5th being deliberately flattened. And you can imagine the P4 being allowed. Same in The Ace of Spades. 

It’s much more common for major (or lydian, or lydian dominant) pieces to have a #4 in the tonic, and minor pieces to have a b5. 

Evo

Other than power chords (due to their overwhelming popularity), there's no recognised way to write out a chord consisting of two notes. 

The reason being the technical definition of a chord requires three or more notes. 

Two notes is a double stop. 

What tends to happen with us guitarists is that we often use double stops (or "dyads") to imply the sound of a particular chord without playing every single note of it. I think this is likely what's happening here, two notes are being played but those two notes are actually giving the impression of a more complex chord happening (as mentioned earlier, likely a diminished chord of some description in this case).

Brad

Seeing Fb5 could make me break out in a sweat… highly unlikely, but it could be open to interpretation an E5 chord spelt enharmonically. 

F(b5) is better, but could suggest the 3rd is present. 

So I’d probably appreciate something that is as descriptive as possible, just to ward against any ambiguity, perhaps some variation of
F(b5 No 3rd)? Although that’s a lot to write on a chart of course. 

Im glad I’ve never seen ‘ind’  

Evo

Just to clarify as well, 

If I encountered "Fb5" on a chart in a professional environment then I would absolutely read that as a power chord built on an Fb note. 

Also, just in case anybody is interested and not already aware, the chords written in chord charts and above guitar tabs in books are not intended to be a reflection of the exact guitar part being played. They are there to provide context to the guitar part, and awareness to the overall harmony being created by ALL the instruments at that point. 

Essentially telling us "The guitarist is playing these notes, but when you add in everything else then the overall sound is giving the impression of this chord"

DamianM

At the start of the piece, above the chart, simply box out any chords that require a specific voicing- diagrammatize and label them as you see fit.

SixStringSage

andyg_prs said:

Tannin said:

A chord with a tritone in it is a diminished chord. Fdim or F° (if it contains the double flat 7th) or Fø (if it has a standard flat 7th). 

I'm just playing F5 - F, B, F (octave) then F, Bb, F

Who is going to be reading it? If this is just for you, and you know you're playing a power chord, then write it how you want (considering it's not a diminished chord, which is how it usually appears).

If other people are going to read it, then Fb5 can cause problems, as other comments have shown.

Or maybe you could annotate it, like "F5 tritone" (F5 being the power chord)