Strat Set up advice discussion

rsvmark

Evening all. Just getting both strats sorted for the year and wanted to see whether the set ups needed attention. Full disclosure, I don’t know what I like or need measurements wise other than wanting to avoid buzz and to play nicely. Am I am still learning about setting stuff up. So I thought I might ask for some advice from a few folks who are experts. If I was closer, I would simply drop them off at @FelineGuitars ! Both have plenty of fret material left, and not a lot of wear. 

Strat 1- custom shop strat- 9.5” radius neck, 10-46 strings. 
Using a capo on 1 and pressing down at the 17th fret, I measured relief using feeler gauges on the 7th fret. Every string was .010 apart from the B string at .008. So it’s pretty much bang on fenders recommendation for a 9.5” neck which is .010.

Removing the capo, I get the action at 1.75mm on the low E and A , and 1.5mm on the rest. I don’t get any buzz on this normally and while it’s not super low, I am guessing this might be considered a medium set up. Fenders recommended action is 1.6mm on all strings. So while I am not gentle when I play, I am guessing this is probably about the right set up for me. I am thinking then that all it needs is a clean, polish the frets using a dremel and autosol, some oil on the fretboard, dab of nutsauce in the slot, restring, check the intonation and that will be ok.

Vintage strat- 7.25” neck
I don’t know what strings I got with this but last year I did re string with 10s. I didn’t adjust the truss rod but I did screw in the claw a little to compensate for the trem plate rising a little with the new strings…. So I guessed they were 9s. There are skinnier frets too. Measuring the relief it’s a little flatter. I got .003 on the low E and A, .004 on the D, and then .006 on the rest. Fenders recommended relief is .012 so it’s quite a lot flatter.
fenders recommended action is 2mm on the bottom E to 1.6mm on the top. I get 2.25mm on the bottom E, 1.75mm on A and D, then 1.5mm on the rest. But I do get a buzz sometimes only on the bottom E. so I am tempted to put a little more relief into the neck just to alleviate the buzz on the bottom E. Then a clean and polish as per the other guitar.

So while I don’t dislike the setup on either, I am not overly experienced in the art of the possible so while they feel fine to me now, is there anything I am missing? Thoughts and opinions welcome 

strtdv

To be honest I'd regard 1.5mm at the 12th fret to be almost as low as I'd want to go. One of my Telecasters is at 1.4mm on a 9.5" radius and the other at 1.6mm on a 10" radius (though the truss rod needs loosened a shade on that one and I'll lower it once I get round to doing that)
It sounds like both guitars are set up perfectly well.

To avoid buzz on the low E I tend to have the E and A set a hair below 2mm.




Fret buzz at the low frets tends to be caused by the truss rod being a bit tight (assuming no high spots on the frets or fretboard), while buzz at the high frets tends to be caused by the saddles being too low.

In an ideal situation you want a pretty even action the whole way down the neck (ie the action at the 12th fret within about 0.2mm of the action at the last fret (21 or 22 depending on which Fender).
On most guitars you can get this with a combination of truss rod and saddle adjustment, but occasionally you'll need a shim.

guitars4you

@rsvmark  - Hard to describe what to do and how to do it, when you just do it 'by instinct' from years of practice - First of all there is no definitive 'set-up' that suits all players - A player with more of an 'aggressive/heavy' right hand, aka SRV, will need more relief and generally a higher action, to avoid string rattle when you dig in and attack the strings - A player with a light touch, can get by with a lower action and probably little relief

I've never ever set-up a guitar with any form of measurement device, or with a view to achieving a specific measurement - I can understand it as a guide line of what you think you might need/want - But I personally set-up any guitar based on feel - Not all guitars are equal, even 2 similar Strats, so hard to get both to play in exactly the same way - Similar yes, but DNA replica of each other ? then probably not 

Hard to advise you as a) don't have the guitars in front of me to see if we can improve the set-up to suit you and b) un-sure of your skill levels in order to suggest various options - In some ways your best bet is to visit a good tech - Let them look at the guitars, then watch you play to get an idea of what you might need - Then they can hopefully make suggestions to suit - A good tech should be making suggestions and adjustments to suit you and your needs and certainly not making adjustments to suit them

A lowest action possible is not always a set-up that suits everyone - Many times I've had to take my 'shop' set-up and raise the action a touch to suit - It is unlikely you'll get the original old Strat to match the 'fluidity' of the CS , based on a 7.25" radius and smaller frets 

Personally I have almost no relief on my set-up but a) I like a 'piss easy' action and b) I pick very gently, as such smaller string vibration, hence less chance of any string rattle - But such a set-up won't suit all

A couple of weeks ago I posted a comment on FB about setting up a CS Strat that had just come into stock - At first I was not happy about the end result, taking into account it was an expensive CS model - I wasn't not happy about a 'that will do approach' - So a day or two later I gave it another tweak - Probably only a gnats whisker here and there - Bottom line was the end result that I was hoping/expecting - As I said earlier, hard to describe the exact nature of what I'm doing, as to be honest you are kind of making it up as you go along, certainly experimenting with adjustments available to you on that actual guitar - So you feel your way in to it 

Hope that makes sense but let me know if I can help further

rsvmark

Thank you both and yes all makes sense although I did have a chuckle - where I did get a little rattle was in the middle of the neck! 

I think I am going to just add a gnats more relief into the vintage neck but see how we go. I will be taking notes so it can all be put back to where it was!

guitars4you

rsvmark said:

Thank you both and yes all makes sense although I did have a chuckle - where I did get a little rattle was in the middle of the neck! 

I think I am going to just add a gnats more relief into the vintage neck but see how we go. I will be taking notes so it can all be put back to where it was!

Do that (taking notes)
key is to do a small amount- tune back up - check- then repeat if necessary- With truss rod adjustment I’d leave it for a day or so to settle down and bed in, then repeat if necessary 

BillDL

In the case of your custom shop Strat you have what I would regard as a very good setup suitable for just about any playing style.  One other thing left to consider is whether any of the strings (high E, B, G) choke out when bent on the frets around and above the 12th fret.  If one of those strings chokes out but the others don't, then raising the respective saddle a gnat's whisker can usually take care of that.  If all three of those strings choke out at one fret and higher up, then you would need to raise all the saddles a smidgen.  If any string chokes out on one fret but doesn't choke out of the frets above that you have a high fret, but that's another matter.

Vintage fretboard radius of 7.25" sometimes means that you need to set your action slightly higher to avoid choking out on wide bends higher up the board.

Three other things to look at that probably won't need adjustment:

Intonation.  Bear in mind that moving a saddle can raise or lower the action of that string a miniscule amount, so you may have to compensate by adjusting the saddle height.

Pickup height. There is a "Fender spec" suggested clearance between the top of the pole pieces and the underside of the strings, but with stronger pickups you can sometimes get damping of the vibration and "wolf tones" on the higher frets and that can cause intonation issues as well as robbing sustain.  Getting a balance between the loudness of the 3 pickups is then a personal choice that takes experimentation.

1st Fret action.  I would guess that the nut slots will be cut well if the guitar plays well with that setup.  Quick check - fret a string at the 3rd fret and tap it down above the 1st fret.  If the nut slot is cut well you should have to look very carefuly to see it move only the slightest bit before you hear the faint ping as it hits the 1st fret.  If it actually has to be pressed down and the downward movement of the string is quite obvious, then the nut slot isn't deep enough and cutting it deeper would have to be compensated for on the overall open string action. Do this for all strings.  The bass strings normally need more clearance that the treble ones.

rsvmark

Thanks for the thoughts @BillDL And the additional advice. I haven’t noticed either guitar choking out but might check for it now. I’ve not really been that fussed about pick up heights- and worked on the basis that if it’s not broken it won’t need fixing but a measure and compare would do any harm and then I have a record and a baseline from which to experiment and fine tune if I want. I will also do the first fret procedure and check- that’s a good one that I haven’t seen before and if there are issues I may need to find a local tech to take a look. I would love to be able to pop along to Feline guitars as he has such a good rep but sadly it’s a distance and time thing.

sweepy

I’m one of those strange people who likes virtually no relief but I do have a very light fretting technique. Not all necks react instantly to truss rod  adjustments  so I apply a little gentle pressure on the neck in accordance with whichever direction you are moving. String action can be an odd one on Strats. I rend to do it by feel as that’s how you interpret a guitar and not measurements.For me I set Strats up with the higher strings slightly higher action wise than the bottom ones as it feels more natural, basically lower them till you have a little rarrle and choke out then ease each string up a quarter turn to taste

guitars4you

sweepy said:

basically lower them till you have a little rarrle and choke out then ease each string up a quarter turn to taste

You can basically apply that to all guitars and set-ups - Assuming no high frets that cause an issue

And remember that a low-ish action is not for all players - I have a Collings i35DLCX in stock - Customer came to try and buy it this week - Instantly felt to low and a touch 'rattly' for him - Checked his Gibson 335 (that he brought up with him) to see how that was set-up and the Collings was significantly lower - That doesn't mean the Gibson was set up wrong, as it wasn't, it is just that the 335 set up was his 'bench mark' - But generally far easier to raise an action a touch, as required as you are taking the strings away from any potential 'rattle' areas

FelineGuitars

Be aware that strat pickups can be notorious for creating buzz if raised too high - especially the neck one .

Those rod magnets can be strong enough to influence the vibration pattern of the strings and in turn throw up rattle - especially in the middle of the neck (7-12th fret)

rsvmark

FelineGuitars said:

Be aware that strat pickups can be notorious for creating buzz if raised too high - especially the neck one .

Those rod magnets can be strong enough to influence the vibration pattern of the strings and in turn throw up rattle - especially in the middle of the neck (7-12th fret)

Thanks for the tip. Can you advise the minimum distance required to avoid this and I will check that’s not happening in mine

FelineGuitars

Take it so the top of the cover is just above the pick-guard and compare with how it has been , and gently raise it until a change occurs and then back off again

noisepolluter

FelineGuitars said:

Take it so the top of the cover is just above the pick-guard and compare with how it has been , and gently raise it until a change occurs and then back off again

This got me thinking about my Strat - I’ve been getting that boioioinnng thing where the note attack momentarily goes quite sharp, particularly on the open low E and A, and it was throwing the tuner a bit generally.

Just backed off all the pickups in increments by about 3/8 of a turn total, and the bass side of the neck pickup by a smidge more, and the note attack pitch is a lot less jumpy now. Tuning generally seems a bit sweeter. ( I did back off to 1/2 turn but brought it back as 3/8 seemed to be the sweet spot.)

I’d say that there’s also an improvement in the response of the guitar, there’s more bounce and snap to the sound. 

Previous heights were based on Fender’s recommended settings - obviously too high for my situation, maybe they were for .009’s? 

Anyway, thanks @FelineGuitars for the tip - I wouldn’t otherwise have thought of straying that far from the manufacturer’s suggested setup. I think my previous attitude to singlecoils has been ‘as high as you can get away with before issues creep in’ but I might revise that…

paulmapp8306

rsvmark said:

Removing the capo, I get the action at 1.75mm on the low E and A , and 1.5mm on the rest. I don’t get any buzz on this normally and while it’s not super low, I am guessing this might be considered a medium set up. 

FWIW - my guitars were all set up for that 1.5 to 1.75mm - and when I asked on a TPS video comments (as they were talking about preferring high action) how high is high - and gave those settings for moine - the overwhelming answer was 1.5 at high E is a LOW action.   Other comments were - as a guide 1.5mm is low, 2mm is med and 2.5 is high.   

I have no idea if that would be the consensus here - but I did raise mine sightly to 1.75 at the high E and 2mm at the low - and find Im much preferring that extra height.  

BillDL

noisepolluter said:

...... I’ve been getting that boioioinnng thing where the note attack momentarily goes quite sharp, particularly on the open low E and A, and it was throwing the tuner a bit generally. ......

It can be really annoying.  I have no doubt that somebody knows the actual physics involved with that oddity, however I've found that to be evident on every guitar I have or have worked on, including acoustics.  It's a case of waiting for that transient peak to settle down, and you hope that the guitar sustains long enough to still register the note on the tuner when it does settle back.  Of course there are bound to be different levels of this idiosyncrasy with some being really annoying and making it almost impossible to tune.  Most certainly lowering the pickups will reduce the effect, especially if they are quite powerful pickups, but it will still be there.  Very often you will hear YouTube guitarists / teachers in their useful tips telling people to strike the string with the same force as they normally play while tuning.  I would guess that those who play really hard must have a hell of a time getting those bass strings in tune.

Kurtis

paulmapp8306 said:

rsvmark said:

Removing the capo, I get the action at 1.75mm on the low E and A , and 1.5mm on the rest. I don’t get any buzz on this normally and while it’s not super low, I am guessing this might be considered a medium set up. 

FWIW - my guitars were all set up for that 1.5 to 1.75mm - and when I asked on a TPS video comments (as they were talking about preferring high action) how high is high - and gave those settings for moine - the overwhelming answer was 1.5 at high E is a LOW action.   Other comments were - as a guide 1.5mm is low, 2mm is med and 2.5 is high.   

I have no idea if that would be the consensus here - but I did raise mine sightly to 1.75 at the high E and 2mm at the low - and find Im much preferring that extra height.  

Whenever people discuss action I always think they sound really low and don't know how they don't get fret rattle. 

Mine (low E, 12th fret) is about 3mm. That's as low as I can get without loosing sustain and tone (caused by string hitting frets) when I dig in.

I do like to whack the strings from time to time. 

paulmapp8306

Kurtis said:

paulmapp8306 said:

rsvmark said:

Removing the capo, I get the action at 1.75mm on the low E and A , and 1.5mm on the rest. I don’t get any buzz on this normally and while it’s not super low, I am guessing this might be considered a medium set up. 

FWIW - my guitars were all set up for that 1.5 to 1.75mm - and when I asked on a TPS video comments (as they were talking about preferring high action) how high is high - and gave those settings for moine - the overwhelming answer was 1.5 at high E is a LOW action.   Other comments were - as a guide 1.5mm is low, 2mm is med and 2.5 is high.   

I have no idea if that would be the consensus here - but I did raise mine sightly to 1.75 at the high E and 2mm at the low - and find Im much preferring that extra height.  

Whenever people discuss action I always think they sound really low and don't know how they don't get fret rattle. 

Mine (low E, 12th fret) is about 3mm. That's as low as I can get without loosing sustain and tone (caused by string hitting frets) when I dig in.

I do like to whack the strings from time to time. 

3mm on low E would equate to something like 2.5mm on the high.  Thigh by "standard" definition (as much as their is one).  there are players that are "very high" lol - and some I know playing around 1.2mm on the high E - but they tend to me technical metal players - so no string bending just ultra fast runs.

Kurtis

I actually thought mine would be higher than that! 

I did lower it slightly a while back, seems alright now. 

rsvmark

Update. 

Neck off the vintage and loosened off 1/4 of a turn. Neck back on and had a wtf moment. All strings were in contact with the frets. Neck off and then carefully screwed in the neck taking care to evenly tighten each of the 4 screws in a crossing pattern. All was well. Left it a couple of days, tuned to pitch and oddly the relief remains at 006 on the G, B and top E while the bottom three strings went to 005. 

Gave it another 1/8th of a turn and the D string is now at 006. Action now 2.25, 2, 2, and 1.5mm on all upper strings. It’s now playing more to my taste acoustically anyway and not a hint of a rattle or choke. 

Given it another 8th turn as I can get a small screw driver in to adjust in without taking the neck off. Just to see if that gives anymore relief but it’s really easy to move the screw head. Is it possible that it’s run out of adjustment? 

guitars4you

rsvmark said:

Update. 

Neck off the vintage and loosened off 1/4 of a turn. Neck back on and had a wtf moment. All strings were in contact with the frets. Neck off and then carefully screwed in the neck taking care to evenly tight each of the 4 screws in a crossing patter. All was well. Left it a couple of days, tuned to pitch and oddly the relief remains at 006 on the G, B and top E while the bottom three strings went to 005. 

Gave it another 1/8th of a turn and the D string is now at 006. Action now 2.25, 2, 2, and 1.5mm on all upper strings. It’s now playing more to my taste acoustically anyway and not a hint of a rattle or choke. 

Given it another 8th turn as I can get a small screw driver in to adjust in without taking the neck off. Just to see if that gives anymore relief but it’s really easy to move the screw head. Is it possible that it’s run out of adjustment? 

In short yes but don't worry about it - As you've made quite a bit of adjustment over a few days just keep an eye on it and see how it beds in - Glad you are getting somewhere with it