Guitar selling market

Greatape

guitars4you said:

Brexit - Has it had an impact ? - Regarding new sales, then maybe, maybe not - Prior to Brexit and indeed covid, Thomann was already a powerful outlet, with sales into the UK alone that is greater than that of many UK stores - Believe they now are close to a billion Euro's a year as company - Far larger than Guitar Guitar, Anderton's, Peach, combined - As such whilst they don't own/control the market, they are very dominant - Be it with supply lines, exclusive deals and to a large degree pricing - But equally, companies like Roland/Boss, Fender try to achieve more of a global pricing, once all relevant import duty, purchase tax and shipping has been accounted for 

I'm not in the loop now as to stock levels at the appropriate UK/EU distribution warehouses with the likes of Fender and Gibson - But i still speak, on a regular basis to the PRS team - EU/UK is still one distribution warehouse via Cambridge - Stock level of USA guitars is close to zero and has been like this for nigh on 4 years - Everything is just about sold as/when it arrives - To the point that the warehouse is just about always empty 

Brexit has had an impact with regards to the used Market - Not an issue for the manufactures - Not really a big issue for companies like Anderton's, Guitar Guitar or Thomann as the bulk of their business is new stock - But the vat element has changed on used sales if/when you ship out of your customs border - So EU to UK or UK to EU - Today there is no actual vat when I sell a guitar to you in the UK (Okay there is a vat element within the profit, known as the margin scheme - But not in the way that vat is applied, at 20%, to sit on top of the dealers selling price - So effectively ignore this margin scheme) - Likewise no vat when a German store sells to a EU/German customer - But now if I sell to the EU, or indeed the EU sells to the UK, then VAT has to be applied at 20%

ie - My Les Paul is £2000 to you in the UK - A similar Les Paul in Germany is around 2330 Euros (ie £2k) to a German/EU customer - But now if I sell that £2000 to a customer in France/EU etc it becomes £2400 upon passing customs borders - Ditto for that 2330 Euro LP, which now becomes 2796 Euros upon leaving Germany to come to Derby - Bottom line is that it has just about killed used sales between the UK and EU and/or EU and UK - So a pain to the 'smaller guy' but hardly worth a  lost wink of a night's sleep to Rishi or Keir

I have heard from one well known retailer at least that they are pulling back on stocking ranges that have EU distribution hubs rather than GB - with a couple of exceptions - because of post-Brexit cross-border hassles. Bit of a pain, but hey ho 

OilCityPickups

InactiveX said:

SPECTRUM001 said:

Don’t forget though - even if your business collapses (heaven’s forbid) and you have to live in a shoe box - apparently the UK got its sovereignty back - yay !!!

Surely that’s worth all the crap innit ??!!

I ate sovereignty this morning for breakfast. And I ate it all day yesterday. In fact, I've eaten nothing but sovereignty since January 2020. It does a good job of heating my home, too.

Anyone up for discussing the Rwanda policy?

Nice safe place to bring up yer kids ... guitars are probably well cheap over there ... as so many folks who weren't killed, lost stuff like arms and hands when the Hutu were carving up the Tutsi with machetes twenty years ago.  

guitars4you

Greatape said:

guitars4you said:

Brexit - Has it had an impact ? - Regarding new sales, then maybe, maybe not - Prior to Brexit and indeed covid, Thomann was already a powerful outlet, with sales into the UK alone that is greater than that of many UK stores - Believe they now are close to a billion Euro's a year as company - Far larger than Guitar Guitar, Anderton's, Peach, combined - As such whilst they don't own/control the market, they are very dominant - Be it with supply lines, exclusive deals and to a large degree pricing - But equally, companies like Roland/Boss, Fender try to achieve more of a global pricing, once all relevant import duty, purchase tax and shipping has been accounted for 

I'm not in the loop now as to stock levels at the appropriate UK/EU distribution warehouses with the likes of Fender and Gibson - But i still speak, on a regular basis to the PRS team - EU/UK is still one distribution warehouse via Cambridge - Stock level of USA guitars is close to zero and has been like this for nigh on 4 years - Everything is just about sold as/when it arrives - To the point that the warehouse is just about always empty 

Brexit has had an impact with regards to the used Market - Not an issue for the manufactures - Not really a big issue for companies like Anderton's, Guitar Guitar or Thomann as the bulk of their business is new stock - But the vat element has changed on used sales if/when you ship out of your customs border - So EU to UK or UK to EU - Today there is no actual vat when I sell a guitar to you in the UK (Okay there is a vat element within the profit, known as the margin scheme - But not in the way that vat is applied, at 20%, to sit on top of the dealers selling price - So effectively ignore this margin scheme) - Likewise no vat when a German store sells to a EU/German customer - But now if I sell to the EU, or indeed the EU sells to the UK, then VAT has to be applied at 20%

ie - My Les Paul is £2000 to you in the UK - A similar Les Paul in Germany is around 2330 Euros (ie £2k) to a German/EU customer - But now if I sell that £2000 to a customer in France/EU etc it becomes £2400 upon passing customs borders - Ditto for that 2330 Euro LP, which now becomes 2796 Euros upon leaving Germany to come to Derby - Bottom line is that it has just about killed used sales between the UK and EU and/or EU and UK - So a pain to the 'smaller guy' but hardly worth a  lost wink of a night's sleep to Rishi or Keir

I have heard from one well known retailer at least that they are pulling back on stocking ranges that have EU distribution hubs rather than GB - with a couple of exceptions - because of post-Brexit cross-border hassles. Bit of a pain, but hey ho 

Can't comment without specifics - Depends on the retailer, their issues and maybe their position in the market place - The brand itself and how strong it is - But as far as I'm aware, it is the manufacturer/distributor's job to get the goods to my door, inc relevant costs and paperwork, so I have to do nothing - Should be no hassle for the dealer

Different if they are for instance bringing in a range of guitars, say Trussart, that has no UK/EU distribution - As such they are having to handle a good part of the appropriate paperwork - But for sale Roland/Boss, Yamaha, Fender, Gibson etc etc etc, there should be no issue involved for the dealer

prowla

It’s been raining for days; I blame Brexit!

TTony

prowla said:

It’s been raining for days; I blame Brexit!

I was speaking to someone in the weather industry last week, and they said that they'd definitely noticed more rain since Brexit. 

With the prevailing South Westerlies, the clouds head across the Atlantic but the clouds - and all that rain - can no longer get across the North Sea to dump on mainland Europe because they don't have the correct paperwork. 

So it all dumps on Britain instead.

SlopeSoarer

Certain manufacturers put up their prices... considerably (rightly or wrongly)! The used market went whey hey, whilst our economy limps along.

If you want to sell, be realistic with pricing. If you want to buy bide your time, the right deal will come along I'm sure.

BigPaulie

SlopeSoarer said:

Certain manufacturers put up their prices... considerably (rightly or wrongly)! The used market went whey hey, whilst our economy limps along.

If you want to sell, be realistic with pricing. If you want to buy bide your time, the right deal will come along I'm sure.

Good advice 

Wazmeister

fretfinder said:

notsopro said:

chris78 said:

notsopro said:

chris78 said:

strtdv said:

@chris78 it's worth noting in your comparison that the UK price includes VAT while the USA price does not include taxes (as they are state dependent and vary depending on delivery address) 

If you add VAT to the American price the difference is much smaller (around £100).

You can find an American Pro Strat for about £1750 if you look around, which is effectively the same as the USA price plus VAT

Yeah but if I shopped around in the US, I’d be able to get it significantly cheaper. A very quick search comes up with $1599. 

I’ve also found that US and Canadian firms have commented on the increased import paperwork post Brexit, adding to complexity and cost.

you're saying about 'shopping around' can get it cheaper, but we are using your example, that you gave as an example of Brexit driving up the cost of guitars. You've been shown that there is either zero cost increase in comparison to EU, or a very small percentage compared to the US. To which you're response is 'well if i shop around I can get it cheaper'... I'm not sure what point that makes, as discussed the price varies with different retailers, no one has questioned that. 

A reminder of your point when posting on the fender website price:

"Just a single example- an American Pro Strat from Fender themselves on their website.
£1839.
$1799.

The pound is currently 1.245

So in the US, £1445. 

The example is particularly strong because it’s with the same retailer. 

We are paying a Brexit premium, also known as the idiot premium."

maybe just admit you were wrong on that one?

I'm sure you have found that, have you managed to find any examples of a guitar that's cost has "gone way up" as a result of Brexit yet? 

I was responding to someone moving the goalposts.

To answer though, the retailers are telling me prices have risen due to Brexit. They’re telling me it’s harder to sell the EU. Guitar makers are saying they’ve got barriers due to Brexit to do with raw materials, trading with the EU, but I guess that’s the problem with pesky experts, eh?

just to be clear. You said "prices have gone way up because of Brexit". I asked you if you could show any examples of that, you posted an example which didn't prove your point. I'm trying to keep this on topic with regards to actual 'guitar prices'. You're trying to change the narrative of your point to the prices of raw materials, trading with the EU have gone up which is not something I'm disputing. What I am disputing is that the "prices of new guitars have gone way up because of brexit". 

You can point to your casual chat with a retailer as evidence that prices have increased because of Brexit, however if this was the case it would be quite easy to find a few examples of us paying more (on average) than EU or US retailers. I find it a bit strange you were more than happy to post an example you found suggesting "a quick search" found examples, yet when it's been pointed out that example actually shows no difference in price you're saying 'well why should we trust experts eh". 

Not sure about you but if I get told something, I like to question it and see if there's any evidence to back it up. 

Please stop, this never ending tit for tat is getting very tedious. If you really want the full half hour argument and not just five minutes then take it to PM. Yes we know only too well that if you get told something you like to question it!

Spot on.

prowla

Wazmeister said:

fretfinder said:

notsopro said:

chris78 said:

notsopro said:

chris78 said:

strtdv said:

@chris78 it's worth noting in your comparison that the UK price includes VAT while the USA price does not include taxes (as they are state dependent and vary depending on delivery address) 

If you add VAT to the American price the difference is much smaller (around £100).

You can find an American Pro Strat for about £1750 if you look around, which is effectively the same as the USA price plus VAT

Yeah but if I shopped around in the US, I’d be able to get it significantly cheaper. A very quick search comes up with $1599. 

I’ve also found that US and Canadian firms have commented on the increased import paperwork post Brexit, adding to complexity and cost.

you're saying about 'shopping around' can get it cheaper, but we are using your example, that you gave as an example of Brexit driving up the cost of guitars. You've been shown that there is either zero cost increase in comparison to EU, or a very small percentage compared to the US. To which you're response is 'well if i shop around I can get it cheaper'... I'm not sure what point that makes, as discussed the price varies with different retailers, no one has questioned that. 

A reminder of your point when posting on the fender website price:

"Just a single example- an American Pro Strat from Fender themselves on their website.
£1839.
$1799.

The pound is currently 1.245

So in the US, £1445. 

The example is particularly strong because it’s with the same retailer. 

We are paying a Brexit premium, also known as the idiot premium."

maybe just admit you were wrong on that one?

I'm sure you have found that, have you managed to find any examples of a guitar that's cost has "gone way up" as a result of Brexit yet? 

I was responding to someone moving the goalposts.

To answer though, the retailers are telling me prices have risen due to Brexit. They’re telling me it’s harder to sell the EU. Guitar makers are saying they’ve got barriers due to Brexit to do with raw materials, trading with the EU, but I guess that’s the problem with pesky experts, eh?

just to be clear. You said "prices have gone way up because of Brexit". I asked you if you could show any examples of that, you posted an example which didn't prove your point. I'm trying to keep this on topic with regards to actual 'guitar prices'. You're trying to change the narrative of your point to the prices of raw materials, trading with the EU have gone up which is not something I'm disputing. What I am disputing is that the "prices of new guitars have gone way up because of brexit". 

You can point to your casual chat with a retailer as evidence that prices have increased because of Brexit, however if this was the case it would be quite easy to find a few examples of us paying more (on average) than EU or US retailers. I find it a bit strange you were more than happy to post an example you found suggesting "a quick search" found examples, yet when it's been pointed out that example actually shows no difference in price you're saying 'well why should we trust experts eh". 

Not sure about you but if I get told something, I like to question it and see if there's any evidence to back it up. 

Please stop, this never ending tit for tat is getting very tedious. If you really want the full half hour argument and not just five minutes then take it to PM. Yes we know only too well that if you get told something you like to question it!

Spot on.

I blame Brexit.

willo

Hey at least we don't have shrinkflation yet. Guitars with five strings; lighter Les Paul's...

Hold on ..

guitargeek62

TTony said:

prowla said:

It’s been raining for days; I blame Brexit!

I was speaking to someone in the weather industry last week, and they said that they'd definitely noticed more rain since Brexit. 

With the prevailing South Westerlies, the clouds head across the Atlantic but the clouds - and all that rain - can no longer get across the North Sea to dump on mainland Europe because they don't have the correct paperwork. 

So it all dumps on Britain instead.

Sounds logical, was their name Douglas Adams per chance?

Litterick

It is hard to sell a guitar anywhere. Nobody has any money, sellers outnumber buyers, new products are cheap and so many other distractions are available. It is a global problem and we should get used to it.

Nerine

topdog91 said:

No less tedious: tFB's editor's limitless quoting "capabilities". Perhaps snip them manually?

Absolute horror show on a mobile browser.