No mate, it's not a fender, it's a partscaster

digitalscream

stonevibe said:

OilCityPickups said:

stonevibe said:

Technically, could I remove the neck from the Limited Edition Joe Strummer and sell it on another guitar body then, as it does not have a Fender logo?

But does it say Fender on the back? :-) 

Doesn't it have to be the logo?

Not necessarily. It's whether the item (could be anything) purports to be something that it isn't. So, if it has a Fender trademark on the back, and the serial number from a Fender guitar, that could reasonably fall foul of the law in question. I haven't seen that idea tested, though.

stonevibe

digitalscream said:

stonevibe said:

OilCityPickups said:

stonevibe said:

Technically, could I remove the neck from the Limited Edition Joe Strummer and sell it on another guitar body then, as it does not have a Fender logo?

But does it say Fender on the back? :-) 

Doesn't it have to be the logo?

Not necessarily. It's whether the item (could be anything) purports to be something that it isn't. So, if it has a Fender trademark on the back, and the serial number from a Fender guitar, that could reasonably fall foul of the law in question. I haven't seen that idea tested, though.

Good to know.

As I stated in my first post about this. Fender f**ked up protecting their brand and should have been much tighter on body shapes, headstock shapes and design elements. 

OilCityPickups

I think a lot of folks forget that while the trademark infringement laws are there to protect the intellectual property of the manufacturers, and you could argue - mostly for that - they are also there to help stop you getting taken to the cleaners! I remember not so long ago when a certain quite well respected parts supplier (not one of our fold of trade sellers on here I must stress) was flogging 'replica' Fender necks with moody transfer logos. That was stopped by Fender with a nasty letter ... but I remember chatting to that dealer who felt they had been quite hard done by. I wonder how many folks wasted their money on fake 'Fender' necks that started their life at that source? Forgery is only a bit of fun or a victimless crime until you get taken in yourself after all :-)

JezWynd

stonevibe said:

damm73 said:

On the listing, he's entered the brand as Fender. I think that's a teeny bit disingenuous. 

eBay doesn't let you enter multiple brands, as far as I am aware, so is it his fault?

Not multiples but I'm sure you could add 'SC Relics & Fender' as a custom entry.

guitars4you

Gilly said:

guitars4you said:

But no sensible person would do that (remove the logo) He is 100% legally within his rights to sell the neck on its own as a CS neck complete with the relevant logo - No issues and no questions - End off

As such it is only a more long winded series of sales to get his £1800 quid by selling it in parts

But in this case I do not see where he has said it is a ‘Fender Guitar’ - Assembled in a Fender Factory by staff employed by Fender - If the ad said ‘Fender Custom Shop Nocaster for sale ‘ then I’d agree with you - But it clearly states Fender Custom Shop neck and not guitar 

But he’s the not selling the neck on it’s own. He’s selling a complete guitar with a Fender logo on the headstock, which isn’t a Fender guitar. Hence it’s a fake and the sale is illegal. 

But he never says it is a Fender Guitar - He states it is a Fender Neck - which it is

guitars4you

Gilly said:

Also @guitars4you aren’t you a Fender dealer?  

Not these days - Only sell used and semi retired 

Gilly

As already stated, it’s illegal to sell counterfeit items even if you describe them as such. Don’t think there’s anything more to add.

SPECTRUM001

OilCityPickups said:

chris78 said:

digitalscream said:

guitars4you said:

Agree an element of gray area, but essentially with his product info he is not pulling the wool over anyone's eyes

Not really. Under the law, it's a fake.

It's absolutely not.
He's put a genuine cs neck onto the body of a different maker. Nothing illegal in that and it makes it clear what it is from both the pics and description.
You surely can't be suggesting he removes the logo from the genuine neck?

According to the law that's exactly what should be done. It's no longer a Fender, assembled by Fender in a Fender factory so it shouldn't bear a Fender badge ... simple as that ... it's a fake. 
Remove the logo and it's fine. 
Selling the neck on it's own as a custom shop neck shouldn't cause any legality issues as it's not a complete guitar so not fooling anyone it's a Fender. 

Then I do not understand why Fender are encouraging folks to buy their replacement necks (I remember their marketing suggesting one could "try out" a different neck/fret size etc) - as the moment you take off the neck and change it, the guitar is no longer "assembled by Fender".

Does that go for swapping out pickups - you have changed the guitar, so no longer a Fender as it left the factory. Now a fake ?

guitars4you

Gilly said:

As already stated, it’s illegal to sell counterfeit items even if you describe them as such. Don’t think there’s anything more to add.

100% correct - But this is not counterfeit - He never states it is a Fender Guitar - He only states it is a Fender neck which it is, or to be more precise a Fender Custom Shop NoCaster Neck which it is - Looks like nothing else, other than the case, is from a Fender, or indeed he implies are from a Fender - Whilst we all see many fakes, this one isn't - The only implication that it is a Fender Guitar, is you (as in all of us) looking at the finished article and as such assuming it is a Fender - But it is never listed as a Fender Guitar - Only a Fender Neck

If the whole guitar was say an SC Relic with now a Fender logo added on to the neck, then I'd agree with you - And on that basis you can put it up in Times Square size neon lights 'Not A Fender' but it is still a fake/counterfeit nevertheless

As it happens if I was selling this guitar it would already have been stripped down to parts and sold by me at various shows I exhibit at - I might list the neck for sale on Reverb, only as it is a global market place, and any UK Guitar Show, at best, is localised - A) because it gets rid of any such squabbles I think I'd get more than £1850 in parts C) bit of fun and I like selling parts at such shows 

But even if the neck is sold on its own, which is 100% legal to do so, it won't stop any one else next week/month/year adding it to another body and selling it as a full blown CS with appropriate other parts and of course it isn't exactly hard to create a fake COA - So even breaking it down into parts won't stop another squabble another day 

guitars4you

matt_sefton said:

These discussions go round and round endlessly. It’s not rocket science.

Don't go all sensible on us now - Will let you know when we need Dr Kissinger to come in and make peace 

chris78

OilCityPickups said:

chris78 said:

digitalscream said:

guitars4you said:

Agree an element of gray area, but essentially with his product info he is not pulling the wool over anyone's eyes

Not really. Under the law, it's a fake.

It's absolutely not.
He's put a genuine cs neck onto the body of a different maker. Nothing illegal in that and it makes it clear what it is from both the pics and description.
You surely can't be suggesting he removes the logo from the genuine neck?

According to the law that's exactly what should be done. It's no longer a Fender, assembled by Fender in a Fender factory so it shouldn't bear a Fender badge ... simple as that ... it's a fake. 
Remove the logo and it's fine. 
Selling the neck on its own as a custom shop neck shouldn't cause any legality issues as it's not a complete guitar so not fooling anyone it's a Fender. 

Yet fender sell their own necks with their logo on it.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/fender_am_prof_ii_strat_neck_rw.htm?glp=1&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgf727c-chgMVr5hQBh2HEQgBEAQYAyABEgISBfD_BwE

https://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/Fender-Player-Series-Stratocaster-Neck-Maple-95-Modern-C/4N8Z?origin=product-ads&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgf727c-chgMVr5hQBh2HEQgBEAQYBCABEgKo9vD_BwE

I can’t see any disclaimer that they must not be applied a body that is non fender, even when buying from fender direct 

https://www.fender.com/en-GB/replacement-neck-buying-guide.html

Sporky

guitars4you said:

But this is not counterfeit

Legally speaking it absolutely is. 

guitars4you

Not sure if anyone else saw them, but at the recent NE Guitar Show near Sunderland/Durham, someone was selling guitars with a spaghetti style logo with the brand name 'DeFender'  and yes on Strat/Tele style bodies, so blatant - Granted only a small 'one man operation by the looks of things - Not sure if there is any social media out there on this - think they were Durham based

Makes you wonder how far an importer selling necks and/or indeed parts only, using Defender as their brand name, would get - I assume the implication within the brand Defender is to close to the bone to be legal 

OilCityPickups

guitars4you said:

Gilly said:

guitars4you said:

But no sensible person would do that (remove the logo) He is 100% legally within his rights to sell the neck on its own as a CS neck complete with the relevant logo - No issues and no questions - End off

As such it is only a more long winded series of sales to get his £1800 quid by selling it in parts

But in this case I do not see where he has said it is a ‘Fender Guitar’ - Assembled in a Fender Factory by staff employed by Fender - If the ad said ‘Fender Custom Shop Nocaster for sale ‘ then I’d agree with you - But it clearly states Fender Custom Shop neck and not guitar 

But he’s the not selling the neck on it’s own. He’s selling a complete guitar with a Fender logo on the headstock, which isn’t a Fender guitar. Hence it’s a fake and the sale is illegal. 

But he never says it is a Fender Guitar - He states it is a Fender Neck - which it is

It doesn't matter that he just states it's a Fender neck ... if it's part of a complete guitar with a body which isn't Fender and it says Fender on the headstock ... it automatically becomes a fake. 
I can understand how that might seem unfair - but there are a lot of laws that are a bit unfair to some for the protection of others. 
Personally I think the partscaster thing pales into insignificance against the tide of fakery that comes in from China ... 
This is quite blatantly on eBay at the moment ... 

guitars4you

Sporky said:

guitars4you said:

But this is not counterfeit

Legally speaking it absolutely is. 

Looks like round 2/3 and 4 will be the same as round 1- But think time to bail out as those with their ayes to the right and the those with their noes to the left are not suddenly going to change their mind 

guitars4you

chris78 said:

OilCityPickups said:

chris78 said:

digitalscream said:

guitars4you said:

Agree an element of gray area, but essentially with his product info he is not pulling the wool over anyone's eyes

Not really. Under the law, it's a fake.

It's absolutely not.
He's put a genuine cs neck onto the body of a different maker. Nothing illegal in that and it makes it clear what it is from both the pics and description.
You surely can't be suggesting he removes the logo from the genuine neck?

According to the law that's exactly what should be done. It's no longer a Fender, assembled by Fender in a Fender factory so it shouldn't bear a Fender badge ... simple as that ... it's a fake. 
Remove the logo and it's fine. 
Selling the neck on its own as a custom shop neck shouldn't cause any legality issues as it's not a complete guitar so not fooling anyone it's a Fender. 

Yet fender sell their own necks with their logo on it.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/fender_am_prof_ii_strat_neck_rw.htm?glp=1&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgf727c-chgMVr5hQBh2HEQgBEAQYAyABEgISBfD_BwE

https://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/Fender-Player-Series-Stratocaster-Neck-Maple-95-Modern-C/4N8Z?origin=product-ads&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgf727c-chgMVr5hQBh2HEQgBEAQYBCABEgKo9vD_BwE

I can’t see any disclaimer that they must not be applied a body that is non fender, even when buying from fender direct 

https://www.fender.com/en-GB/replacement-neck-buying-guide.html

It was a while ago now, but I recall a long chat with a senior member of Fender EU about this topic and what is the basis of a fake, and what is legal or illegal - I can't recall the conclusion as I'm talking about a chat from well over 10 years ago - But there was little in the way of an 'objection' of a customer buying appropriate parts, as per above, assembling the guitar in their own man cave and calling it a Fender, as and when they come to sell it - The issue of course would be cost as the sum of the parts would be more than the equivalent factory assembled model - But is that the main point and area of expected sales, ie buying all the appropriate parts - I suspect many buy just say a neck, to convert an existing model, probably due to fingerboard radius, or neck profile, or indeed buy say an HSS body, in a different finish, to replace an SSS body  

As I say I can't recall all the info, but it certainly wasn't that guitar would now be a 'fake' as far as Fender are concerned - So any legal clarification/prosecution would have to come from trading standards 

Sporky

guitars4you said:

Sporky said:

guitars4you said:

But this is not counterfeit

Legally speaking it absolutely is. 

Looks like round 2/3 and 4 will be the same as round 1- But think time to bail out as those with their ayes to the right and the those with their noes to the left are not suddenly going to change their mind 

In legal terms it is a counterfeit. 

That's not a matter of opinion. 

guitars4you

OilCityPickups said:

guitars4you said:

Gilly said:

guitars4you said:

But no sensible person would do that (remove the logo) He is 100% legally within his rights to sell the neck on its own as a CS neck complete with the relevant logo - No issues and no questions - End off

As such it is only a more long winded series of sales to get his £1800 quid by selling it in parts

But in this case I do not see where he has said it is a ‘Fender Guitar’ - Assembled in a Fender Factory by staff employed by Fender - If the ad said ‘Fender Custom Shop Nocaster for sale ‘ then I’d agree with you - But it clearly states Fender Custom Shop neck and not guitar 

But he’s the not selling the neck on it’s own. He’s selling a complete guitar with a Fender logo on the headstock, which isn’t a Fender guitar. Hence it’s a fake and the sale is illegal. 

But he never says it is a Fender Guitar - He states it is a Fender Neck - which it is

It doesn't matter that he just states it's a Fender neck ... if it's part of a complete guitar with a body which isn't Fender and it says Fender on the headstock ... it automatically becomes a fake. 
I can understand how that might seem unfair - but there are a lot of laws that are a bit unfair to some for the protection of others. 
Personally I think the partscaster thing pales into insignificance against the tide of fakery that comes in from China ... 
This is quite blatantly on eBay at the moment ... 

I was told about a shop in China that sells Martin's - You walk into it and it is meant to look like a Martin showroom as in the Gibson Garage - But none are Martin's - Not sure if this is true, still there or closed down

But such market thrives as we all think it is just a bit of 'harmless fun' - And/or the big corporate companies deserve to be shafted, in part due to their 'shit quality control' in part due to their 'shafting the customer pricing policy' - Be it a Klon copy, Gretsch as per above, Chibson etc etc 

guitars4you

digitalscream said:

stonevibe said:

Gilly said:

guitars4you said:

But no sensible person would do that (remove the logo) He is 100% legally within his rights to sell the neck on its own as a CS neck complete with the relevant logo - No issues and no questions - End off

As such it is only a more long winded series of sales to get his £1800 quid by selling it in parts

But in this case I do not see where he has said it is a ‘Fender Guitar’ - Assembled in a Fender Factory by staff employed by Fender - If the ad said ‘Fender Custom Shop Nocaster for sale ‘ then I’d agree with you - But it clearly states Fender Custom Shop neck and not guitar 

But he’s the not selling the neck on it’s own. He’s selling a complete guitar with a Fender logo on the headstock, which isn’t a Fender guitar. Hence it’s a fake and the sale is illegal. 

So is Clapton's Blackie a fake?

It is not the same Fender guitar that left the factory.

Yes. However, given that it's a uniquely well-known historical instrument (ie it's unique and famous enough that nobody with a passing familiarity could be expected to not know what it is), I think there's some sort of exception for baked into the law for it

I quote : - In the same year, Clapton found the Sho-Bud guitar shop in Nashville, Tennessee. He bought six vintage Strats for a hundred dollars each. After giving one each to George Harrison, Pete Townshend, and Steve Winwood, he took the best parts of the remaining three (built c. 1956 and 1957) and assembled "Blackie", so named for its black finish

But what about the other necks, plus indeed the bodies - Who knows what happened to them and without such 'history' are these 'fakes' - Probably a different story for another day, as 75K for any mid late 50's vintage Strat is not part of our day to day chat/market place etc 

guitars4you

stonevibe said:

Gilly said:

guitars4you said:

But no sensible person would do that (remove the logo) He is 100% legally within his rights to sell the neck on its own as a CS neck complete with the relevant logo - No issues and no questions - End off

As such it is only a more long winded series of sales to get his £1800 quid by selling it in parts

But in this case I do not see where he has said it is a ‘Fender Guitar’ - Assembled in a Fender Factory by staff employed by Fender - If the ad said ‘Fender Custom Shop Nocaster for sale ‘ then I’d agree with you - But it clearly states Fender Custom Shop neck and not guitar 

But he’s the not selling the neck on it’s own. He’s selling a complete guitar with a Fender logo on the headstock, which isn’t a Fender guitar. Hence it’s a fake and the sale is illegal. 

So is Clapton's Blackie a fake?

It is not the same Fender guitar that left the factory.

Just got me thinking - In the 70's it was common amongst all guitar shops to cut/paste stock as required - You ask any dealer who was around back then, or indeed any/many customers who purchased Fender Guitars back then - You didn't have dealers with 20/30 USA Strats in stock then like you do now - So chances are we'd have a black Strat with a rosewood board, but today the customer wanted to buy a black Strat with a maple board - No problem - Give us 30 mins and we'll swap over the neck - This happened maybe once a month in a small shop in Derby - It would have happened once a week, or more in a bigger Denmark St store - But this was common culture in the 70's - Can't recall it in the 80's, especially once we got to Corona - Not sure why 'the culture' changed - Maybe a better supply of stock from Fender and a bigger commitment from the appropriate dealers

Obviously no one today will spot such changes - But they didn't leave the factory like that - You'd spot it if you still have the factory catalogue number on the tag as that would indicate m/n or r/n - But then you have to assume that Fender did not make any labelling error as/when such tags were filled in (and I've seen many errors on new CS models and indeed PRS eagle tags in recent years)