Star Wars: The Acolyte

Revolutions

I enjoyed Ashoka. This was painful to watch. Virtually every character is wooden & not at all believable.

I struggle to understand how scripting is so bad in a lot of these big-budget shows. The actors have no chance, especially the ones who aren’t super experienced. And I imagine it has to be delivered line perfect as everything has been signed off by Lucasfilm etc. 

WezV

Revolutions said:

 The actors have no chance, especially the ones who aren’t super experienced.

They are a well experienced bunch!

TimmyO

I think the only real wooden acting is Sol oddly. Oh and the green woman.  
Yord is MEANT to be wooden/stiff 
I love the ‘Jason from The Good Place’ vibes in Qimir
The Padawan character (Jecki - had to look it up) is the most natural/believable (other than Carrie Anne Moss) 

After a coupl of episodes I wasn’t feeling Andor either - I don’t think this will be as good as that but happy to let it develop 

Greatape

I felt that the younger cast members weren't really acting as much as 'being their contemporary selves and saying the lines.' 

Maybe that's the mission brief. 'Relatability' and all that. 

WezV

Just watched the 3rd.  A flashback episode that helps fill in some blanks left by episode 1 and 2

I think the twin concept brings something interestingly different, and the episode sets up some mystery around their heritage.

Nice to see another cool looking Zabrak, and the wookie jedi is an awesome addition.

We get an alternative non jedi/sith take on force use, most similar to the nightsisters, but more neutral.

I'm okay with it.

GSPBASSES

I'm quite liking it, not as good as some of the other Star Wars series, I do think they made a mistake. Episode 3 should've been the episode 1, then it would've all made sense quicker. I have great hopes for it, but there again, I don't try to overthink these things, I just want to be entertain. I do hope there's another series of Andor. I think they also left Ashoka unfinished, so I'm hoping there's a new series of Ashoka coming soon, so we know what happened to her after being stranded wherever it was. 

snowblind

"The internet" appears to have almost universally rounded on Acolyte. I guess when viewed with a critical eye it might be easy to see why although that may be a distraction from what could otherwise be simple entertainment. There are some jarring inconsistencies for sure relative to accepted Star Wars lore but if you aren't too invested in that Acolyte could work as a standalone story. 

There does however seem to be an element of milking the thing for all it is worth. Too often an original idea becomes endless spin-offs and pointless sequels aimed solely at wringing the last few bucks out of a concept. Westworld is a case in point. The first series was excellent but they started at the top and spiralled down into absurdity. I get that there is a need to keep ramping up in order to try to maintain interest but it all too easily descends into "Highlander 2". 

The aforementioned Altered Carbon was only 2 series but IMO series 1 was superior to series 2 and I'm kinda happy there wasn't a 3rd. Similarly Fallout has started really well and if they can maintain that standard then long may it continue. 

I'd like to see a few more stories that don't rely on the main protagonists being idiots or selling human shortcomings as strengths. And for once I'd like to see a story wherein humans don't find some miraculously advanced relics of an ancient all-powerful civilization which they then destroy so they carry on in the same knuckle-dragging mediocrity which plagues our current society.   

WezV

i'm really not getting the hate for it. I'm not saying it's the best Star Wars show out there, but it does feel like much of the criticism for this can be applied to so much Star Wars, but people are going all out for this.

The "fire in space" criticism is the best example of this.   Almost every Star Wars product ever has had the exact same issue, but this is the show that gets heavily criticised for it.

Oh, there is a bit of singing - fucking Disney have ruined Star Wars.  Lets ignore what Lucus added to the originals in the 90's.

Wait, there are Sith when there shouldn't be any according to one line of dialogue from the prequels... but we know they were out there and this is giving us part of that story

Hmm, who the hell are these witches and why  are they changing the force as we know it.... because as has been shown many times, the universe is vast and the Jedi are only one group of force users. 


People are now saying it isn't true to the vision of George Lucas, but nobody wanted his vision after the prequels -

Jetsam1

There's a "Fandom" and they hate everything they are a supposed "fan" of. A good reason to not go anywhere near internet reviews etc as if you want groupthink there you have it.

They have no idea what they want and if anyone tries they are a traitor to whatever very specific idea they and they alone have in their head.

This is a general SciFI problem. And it is tedious in the extreme.

digitalscream

WezV said:

i'm really not getting the hate for it. I'm not saying it's the best Star Wars show out there, but it does feel like much of the criticism for this can be applied to so much Star Wars, but people are going all out for this.

I think it's the way that it's done - taking something that's supposed to be special/unique, which underpins the whole story thus far, then chucks that uniqueness in the bin for the sake of a contrivance to make a crap (often pointless) plotline just to make the new characters even more special-er.

For example, in Ahsoka - we've gone from "Only a tiny proportion of the population can use the Force" to "Nah, anyone can" to solve a logical inconsistency in the new plot. Similarly, Anakin - the Chosen One in prophecies central to the entire saga - was supposed to be uniquely conceived by the Force. Now, thanks to The Acolyte, it's "Meh, anyone can do it, nothing unusual" (in conjunction with the previous), to solve a problem that didn't need to be there (ie that a community of female aliens can support itself through reproduction without males).

This then invalidates a huge portion of the lore relied upon for previous stories, but also presents massive problems like, "Well, the Jedi knew about this planet and this settlement of Force users, so it stands to reason that they'd find out about this new immaculate-conception method of creating Force users, and it's not that hard even for people who aren't particularly strong in the Force, so why do they travel around the galaxy in hugely resource-intensive searches for Force users when they can just make as many as they want on demand?". And, of course, because this all happens at least a hundred years before the prequel series...if these events occurred, Anakin would never have been discovered, and basically none of the films would've happened because the original films' protagonists wouldn't even exist.

This is what happens when your writers and producers were never invested in the franchise, and are encouraged to just come up with shit after skim-reading the synopses for previous releases.

Jetsam1

Maybe it is me, but this is Space Wizards. The original films were hardly incredibly innovative story telling as the plot points really were forever ones, redemption arc, farm boy makes good etc. They were ok. I think they get put on a pedestal due to the effects and the legend built up over the past decades.

I don't really care about lore, I just take it as the perspective of characters at a specific time and place and as said, the galaxy is a big ol' place. No-one character has a hope of knowing everything and if the Republic is really slowly falling apart there will be much more interest in infighting politically than bothering about force users. The point also is that not all planets/systems are part of the Republic so there is space for things to happen. I always liked the early forms of the WH40K universe because of the general chaos of which really the SW Republic would most likely be in.

And I don't really find myself that bothered about plot holes as above as I just want to switch off with something like Star Wars. It is there to act as something I don't have to think about too hard and distract from the awfulness of real life for an hour or so. Because the real world is awful, watching another possibly more awful world..... Wait, is that right?.......

WezV

digitalscream said:

WezV said:

i'm really not getting the hate for it. I'm not saying it's the best Star Wars show out there, but it does feel like much of the criticism for this can be applied to so much Star Wars, but people are going all out for this.

I think it's the way that it's done - taking something that's supposed to be special/unique, which underpins the whole story thus far, then chucks that uniqueness in the bin for the sake of a contrivance to make a crap (often pointless) plotline just to make the new characters even more special-er.

For example, in Ahsoka - we've gone from "Only a tiny proportion of the population can use the Force" to "Nah, anyone can" to solve a logical inconsistency in the new plot. Similarly, Anakin - the Chosen One in prophecies central to the entire saga - was supposed to be uniquely conceived by the Force. Now, thanks to The Acolyte, it's "Meh, anyone can do it, nothing unusual" (in conjunction with the previous), to solve a problem that didn't need to be there (ie that a community of female aliens can support itself through reproduction without males).

This then invalidates a huge portion of the lore relied upon for previous stories, but also presents massive problems like, "Well, the Jedi knew about this planet and this settlement of Force users, so it stands to reason that they'd find out about this new immaculate-conception method of creating Force users, and it's not that hard even for people who aren't particularly strong in the Force, so why do they travel around the galaxy in hugely resource-intensive searches for Force users when they can just make as many as they want on demand?". And, of course, because this all happens at least a hundred years before the prequel series...if these events occurred, Anakin would never have been discovered, and basically none of the films would've happened because the original films' protagonists wouldn't even exist.

This is what happens when your writers and producers were never invested in the franchise, and are encouraged to just come up with shit after skim-reading the synopses for previous releases.

All those issues are just what happens when you expand the view of the universe. 

We get one small view of it in the original films, and Jedi are already relegated to a myth by most of the everyday folk we see.   The lore we know is one small part a very big universe. 

George Lucas was the one to say the Force connects all living things.  What we see in the expanded universe is different ways the force can be perceived or utilised outside of the very prescriptive Jedi/Sith view.  Filoni tends to lean into the animalistic side of this, and people lap it up. The nightsisters showed something very non-jedi/sith, as do things like Bandu or the Mortis gods, it's all stuff that expands our view of the force.   

Almost all of the star wars content so far has shown humanoids have to practice and train their connection to the force or it dwindles, at least until it needs to reappear in dramatic fashion.   I agree Sabines force sensitivity was an unnecessary stretch in Ahsoka.  I guess it kinda comes back to the old Han Solo debate.  Is his luck supposed to signify an innate connection to the force, or can someone just be lucky or innately skilled without it in this universe.

At the moment we don't know how this story is going to play out, but people are already saying it writes off lots of stuff that comes later.  Maybe it doesn't. Based on the reception so far we may never find out.  

On the writers and producers.  It's possible to be a star wars fan and still a bad writer, or write good star wars with only a passing interest in the stories that came before.  There seems to be a push to have everyone associated with it to display their fandom.  One of the actors is getting a lot of flack for accidently saying Anakin instead of Luke in an interview.  No one is showing the bit just before where he clearly shows he is a fan.  The showrunner claims she was writing Star Wars fan fiction in her youth, she has a Leia tattoo on her hand. I think she is more invested that most of us.

digitalscream

Jetsam1 said:

Maybe it is me, but this is Space Wizards. 

 The problem with that argument, and the related "It's just a kids' show!" thing with Doctor Who, is that the majority of the people who are still watching - either a tangentially-related "In the same universe..." show or the same show 14 seasons in - are the deeply-invested fans of the franchise. The more the lore is gutted by poor writing from people who lack the capacity to stay logically-consistent (or just don't care), the less chance there is of more being made.

The result is that we get more and more one-shots with each making things even worse than the last as they continue throwing turds at the wall waiting for one to stick, until the investors just give up and say "Nope, we're not paying for this any more" and the franchise dies completely.

Nobody wants the franchise to die, but that's the wall it's heading towards - at speed.

digitalscream

WezV said:

The showrunner claims she was writing Star Wars fan fiction in her youth, she has a Leia tattoo on her hand. I think she is more invested that most of us.

I need to crack on with some work, but this kind of got an instant reaction - E L James was a Twilight fanfic writer. I'm not entirely convinced that it implies quality or dedication, and - after The Acolyte's first few episodes - I'm damn sure it doesn't qualify someone to run a show with a $180m-budget

WezV

digitalscream said:

WezV said:

The showrunner claims she was writing Star Wars fan fiction in her youth, she has a Leia tattoo on her hand. I think she is more invested that most of us.

I need to crack on with some work, but this kind of got an instant reaction - E L James was a Twilight fanfic writer. I'm not entirely convinced that it implies quality or dedication, and - after The Acolyte's first few episodes - I'm damn sure it doesn't qualify someone to run a show with a $180m-budget

I agree (especially about the needing to do work bit )

I never said her teenage fan fiction was good, or should be considered part of her CV. 

I gave it as an example to show she is a lifelong fan of the stories, in response to your claim

This is what happens when your writers and producers were never invested in the franchise, and are encouraged to just come up with shit after skim-reading the synopses for previous releases.

Actually, this is what happens when you get fans to make the shows.

digitalscream

WezV said:

digitalscream said:

WezV said:

The showrunner claims she was writing Star Wars fan fiction in her youth, she has a Leia tattoo on her hand. I think she is more invested that most of us.

I need to crack on with some work, but this kind of got an instant reaction - E L James was a Twilight fanfic writer. I'm not entirely convinced that it implies quality or dedication, and - after The Acolyte's first few episodes - I'm damn sure it doesn't qualify someone to run a show with a $180m-budget

I agree (especially about the needing to do work bit )

I never said her teenage fan fiction was good, or should be considered part of her CV. 

I gave it as an example to show she is a lifelong fan of the stories, in response to your claim

This is what happens when your writers and producers were never invested in the franchise, and are encouraged to just come up with shit after skim-reading the synopses for previous releases.

Actually, this is what happens when you get fans to make the shows.

Yeah. I guess it's the difference between hiring fans of the franchise who write, and hiring writers who happen to be fans of the franchise.

euan

I’m down with the idea that everyone can use the force, just over the millennia technology has allowed people to be lazy and stopped learning how to use it, except for this archaic pseudo religion who like old shit like swords, robes and mullets 

Jetsam1

digitalscream said:

Jetsam1 said:

Maybe it is me, but this is Space Wizards. 

 The problem with that argument, and the related "It's just a kids' show!" thing with Doctor Who, is that the majority of the people who are still watching - either a tangentially-related "In the same universe..." show or the same show 14 seasons in - are the deeply-invested fans of the franchise. The more the lore is gutted by poor writing from people who lack the capacity to stay logically-consistent (or just don't care), the less chance there is of more being made.

The result is that we get more and more one-shots with each making things even worse than the last as they continue throwing turds at the wall waiting for one to stick, until the investors just give up and say "Nope, we're not paying for this any more" and the franchise dies completely.

Nobody wants the franchise to die, but that's the wall it's heading towards - at speed.

And the best thing they have done with it has been Andor and The Mandalorian which only touched on the force (albeit more in the Mandalorian but shows force users and the Jedi to be just as fallible as anyone else).

But it is their ball to play with fundamentally. In the argument above the prequals should have killed it off quicksmart and finally?

I agree, Dr Who is dull pap.

littlegreenman

GSPBASSES said:

I'm quite liking it, not as good as some of the other Star Wars series, I do think they made a mistake. Episode 3 should've been the episode 1, then it would've all made sense quicker. I have great hopes for it, but there again, I don't try to overthink these things, I just want to be entertain. I do hope there's another series of Andor. I think they also left Ashoka unfinished, so I'm hoping there's a new series of Ashoka coming soon, so we know what happened to her after being stranded wherever it was. 

Agree that ep 3 should have been ep 1. Would have made 1 and 2 make more sense.

Also agree about simply wanting to be entertained. I was 7 years old when I watched Star Wars in the cinema when it was released and it absolutely enthralled me. I've watched pretty much everything since then (still have to do Clone Wars) and have loved all of it.

It doesn't all have to be connected and make perfect sense to be part of the Universe to me, and I'm quite a sci-fi nerd, it's all about the story within the Universe and whether it works as a piece of story telling. So far, The Acolyte is fulfilling it for me. We'll see how it develops.

Andor was flawed in that respect, but a perfect story. Some of the best characters we've seen in the SWEU IMO. Including the quite Shakespearean monolgue from Stellan Skarsgård

Mads Mikkelsen in Rogue One was my favourite character, even though he was perhaps the villain by most standards. The best of the spin-off movies by a mile.

Michelle Ang in, as someone earlier described as, "The Bid Bitch" was great. The Kiwi accent just worked for the character.

As I often say to work colleagues who recommend TV shows/ movies "does it have spaceships, laser weaponry, dragons or zombies?" If not, I'm probs not interested, haha...

WezV

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGeb3hvAJ/