Bellies forming on acoustic guitars..Not bad yet,,but...Still Worried..

KevS

Is this from over or under humidification..

If I buy a device to maintain humidity what is the least high maintenance..
If this is a bit more costly as a one off payment it is worth it..

I have loosened the strings as advised on a video,but I can't seem to find straight direct advice about what causes belling apart from too heavy strings..

The Guild D50 has 12's and the Taylor 12 10's I actually keep that tuned down a step..

I am guilty of mainly playing my electric guitars..So the acoustics get left for periods..
I saw in a video you should loosen the strings..
I genuinely didn't know that and so didn't..

My earlier cheaper ply with solid top acoustic guitars bellied,one in someone else's house..
Where I was I had to run a dehumidifier..I actually lost Fenders..The neck end truss rods crushed the wood..
All of the necks started to banana quickly when I moved in..Nightmare..
One guitar the frets started lifting out.. 
No salesmen in guitar shops had any answers..
Eventually it was a guitar tech that explained stuff to me..

Can humidification stop the bellying...Or is it too much humidity causing it..
I know wood swells with humidity,,so is the bridge being pulled forwards by lack of humidity,
or is the back swelling because of it..?

Should I abandon Acoustic guitars and stick to electric,,or is there a simple fix..
My electric necks seem pretty stable in this house..I've lived here about a year and a half..

I have heard about hygrometers etc....Do I need them..

Lewy

First things first... bellies are normal on acoustic guitars. It's only when things get excessive that you have anything to be concerned about. Get a straight edge, lay it across the soundboard at the "apex" of the belly and look at how much of a gap there is between the straight edge and the edge of the soundboard. If it's less than 1/4" on each side you're fine.

Excessive bellies can be caused by a few things, including loose braces or strings too heavy for the bracing of the guitar. If it's being caused by humidity, then it will be over-humidification, not under-humidification (that causes the soundboard to sink the other way).

If you have your acoustics out of their cases, it's a good idea to get a hygrometer to keep an eye on the environment they're in. Doesn't need to be an expensive one because you're working with quite a broad range of acceptable relative humidty (RH) for acoustics to be happy (generally speaking 45-55% RH for optimum performance but you've got room either side of that before structural problems start to occur). So it only needs to be accurate to the nearest couple of %.

Tannin

The first thing you need is to find out what's going on, and the only way to do that is by measuring the humidity (and also the temperature). Something like this would do nicely: https://www.dampsolutions.com.au/store/Meter-ThermoPro-TP55_Backlit

That one, chosen at semi-random off the web, costs $40 AUD, so about £25. Not much more than the price of a set of strings. 

Your problem is far more likely to be too much humidity than too little. The other big issue is major temperature swings. Guitars like to be stored in reasonably stable conditions. If your inside temperature swings from (say) 12 degrees to (say) 25 degrees over and over on a daily basis, that's bad for your guitars. Guitars, even fine all-solid acoustic guitars, are remarkably forgiving, they will tolerate long-term storage at 40% humidity or at 60%, and they don't much mind occasional short-term excursions well beyond that range, but constantly cycling temperatures and bad humidity (too high or too low) will combine to wreck them.

First: find out what is going on.

Only then can you decide what to do about it. 

KevS

Lewy said:

First things first... bellies are normal on acoustic guitars. It's only when things get excessive that you have anything to be concerned about. Get a straight edge, lay it across the soundboard at the "apex" of the belly and look at how much of a gap there is between the straight edge and the edge of the soundboard. If it's less than 1/4" on each side you're fine.

Excessive bellies can be caused by a few things, including loose braces or strings too heavy for the bracing of the guitar. If it's being caused by humidity, then it will be over-humidification, not under-humidification (that causes the soundboard to sink the other way).

If you have your acoustics out of their cases, it's a good idea to get a hygrometer to keep an eye on the environment they're in. Doesn't need to be an expensive one because you're working with quite a broad range of acceptable relative humidty (RH) for acoustics to be happy (generally speaking 45-55% RH for optimum performance but you've got room either side of that before structural problems start to occur). So it only needs to be accurate to the nearest couple of %.

Thanks very much for you reply and advice...The Taylor 12 is more worrying than the Guild then..I have the Taylor tuned down a tone but this is more likely to happen to a 12 string I guess,,it is just over a year old..Ply back and sides,solid top..Sounds huge..I have a 10 set on there..

I am reading about the D'Addario Humidipacks that work both ways,to keep the guitar stable..
You need to buy new packs a fair bit though..Also for a few acoustics things could be pricey,,but it also seems like peace of mind,like employing a really good Nanny for your guitars..lol..

KevS

Tannin said:

The first thing you need is to find out what's going on, and the only way to do that is by measuring the humidity (and also the temperature). Something like this would do nicely: https://www.dampsolutions.com.au/store/Meter-ThermoPro-TP55_Backlit

That one, chosen at semi-random off the web, costs $40 AUD, so about £25. Not much more than the price of a set of strings. 

Your problem is far more likely to be too much humidity than too little. The other big issue is major temperature swings. Guitars like to be stored in reasonably stable conditions. If your inside temperature swings from (say) 12 degrees to (say) 25 degrees over and over on a daily basis, that's bad for your guitars. Guitars, even fine all-solid acoustic guitars, are remarkably forgiving, they will tolerate long-term storage at 40% humidity or at 60%, and they don't much mind occasional short-term excursions well beyond that range, but constantly cycling temperatures and bad humidity (too high or too low) will combine to wreck them.

First: find out what is going on.

Only then can you decide what to do about it. 

OK I have ordered this...  . https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/176395710503?chn=ps&_ul=GB&_trkparms=ispr=1&amdata=enc:1yQcxIiZ6Q2qNE0STKGb8BA8&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=176395710503&targetid=1647205088520&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9046895&poi=&campaignid=17206177401&mkgroupid=136851690655&rlsatarget=pla-1647205088520&abcId=9300866&merchantid=505772865&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwhIS0BhBqEiwADAUhcwgWlQa7ADd_7UN-zcJfkhMFU3Y1NKNvp-jltpfOMX6y22c47Pm3qBoCDdEQAvD_BwE


Huge link....I think it is the same model..

Tannin

^ Excellent!

BillDL

As well as measuring the extent of the belly behind the bridge with a straightedge across the width of the guitar, try to assess whether the area of the soundboard between the bridge and the soundhole is going into a concave.  If so your bridge will most likely be tilting forward slightly and causing the deformation.  If it starts to get really bad it can sometimes be addressed by a "JLD Bridge Doctor".  Some guitars do this more than others.  It depends how they are braced internally behind and in front of the bridge, how wide (i.e. front to back) the bridge plate/pad on the underside of the soundboard is, and whether there is additional soundhole support/bracing.

thermionic

Those Thermopro hygrometers look decent. The one in my living room is currently reading 64%, but it has been a bit cold and overcast recently. It should drop 10% if the weather gets sunnier with no rain.

Soupman

I live down on the coast near Newcastle, so similar geographic region to Edinburgh. (Tannin would say we're next door neighbors!)
So similar climate - temperatures above 21deg C are considered a heat wave! However, both are coastal regions and we tend to get more moisture than inland places.
I have no real knowledge but it seems over humid conditions would be the main culprit. There was a thread here a few weeks ago about someone who had a Taylor sent to their facility in Holland for a similar problem which they repaired at a reasonable cost.
You could always email them for any suggestions, I believe they have a good customer service reputation?
There have also been people who've bought a room dehumidifier to address the problem.
Anyway, best of luck getting it sorted, let us know how you get on.
 
 

drofluf

thermionic said:

Those Thermopro hygrometers look decent. The one in my living room is currently reading 64%, but it has been a bit cold and overcast recently. It should drop 10% if the weather gets sunnier with no rain.

I'v got a couple of them myself. In fact was about to rem=comend one before @Tannin beat me to it  

But they're cheap and accurate - I test the calibration of mine every so often and they come out within a few tenths of a percent. 

KevS

I have took them back up to pitch,the 12 down a tone..It looks less bad..As the strings settle it may increase..Both of course got a good playing..

Soupman said:

I live down on the coast near Newcastle, so similar geographic region to Edinburgh. (Tannin would say we're next door neighbors!)

 
 

I lived in Newcastle a bit of 1987 then most of 1988..I was 19 turned 20 there..
First in Gosforth then in Benwell...I am about a mile away from the sea where I live..
My flat is on a street at the bottom of a mild hill...I've saw reports saying that in 10 years up tp the bottom of my street could be under water because of Global Warming..

True about the Temperatures..lol..Although above 25 c is too much for me..

BillDL said:

As well as measuring the extent of the belly behind the bridge with a straightedge across the width of the guitar, try to assess whether the area of the soundboard between the bridge and the soundhole is going into a concave.  If so your bridge will most likely be tilting forward slightly and causing the deformation.

I can't see anything too bad between the bridge and soudhole..

 I had this happen to earlier guitars and way back when I was less experienced I bought an old Eko with a dip in front of the bridge..Lovely feeling neck,sounded dead compared to a plywood Yamaha.The EKO had an adjustable bridge which rattled if played with a pick too,,.I think ithe Yamaha was a FG 340 new 2001..

I had a Yamaha which dipped between soundhole and bridge after that,,plus had a belly..,cheapo guitar solid wood top,it sounded great,better than the others further up the range..I think it was a yamaha FG 720 S..Great sounding Budget Guitar....
It was almost like a half circle in front of the bridge..It got left in the house of someone who was a chain tea drinker and his living room / kitchen was one room..So I am guessing moisture was the problem..That part of Edinburgh seems to be bad for guitars...I had to buy a dehumidifiers,then new ones as they burnt out...

darthed1981

I've had a belly forming for a few years.

It's my age and the beer.

sev112

Hopefully if you’ve got double glazing you don’t shut your windows completely shut, but on the “just open” setting ?  We found our upstairs humidity was huge a few years back, and that was the pr8me cause

KevS

I've found Daily  Edinburgh Weather has humidity today is 68 %,,this seems high..I do have a humidifier in the cupboard..Do you think it would be a good idea to get it running..

thermionic

A humidifier will make it worse...

KevS

thermionic said:

A humidifier will make it worse...

Sorry,,You are right..,I meant to say,,dehumidifier,,
too much on my mind at the same time..lol..

Would getting the dehumidifier working help matters.. ?

Lewy

Have you got a hygrometer yet? The humidity they quote on the weather isn't always Relative Humidity that matters in your case and which a hygrometer will measure.

KevS

Lewy said:

Have you got a hygrometer yet? The humidity they quote on the weather isn't always Relative Humidity that matters in your case and which a hygrometer will measure.

Still waiting on it I'm afraid..

thermionic

The 68% figure will be for outdoors I’d imagine. Wait for the hygrometer to see what it’s like indoors. I lived in Edinburgh for a few years and it was one of the driest places I’ve lived (but I am from Wales…)

Tannin

^ Yes, indoor and outdoor humidity can differ by a large margin, in either direction.

Once you know what your indoor humidity is like and how it tends to vary @KevS - you'll soon work that out in a week or two once your gadget arrives - you will be in a position to deal with it. There are lots of possible solutions. Which of them will be most appropriate to you remains to be seen. 

guitarjack66

thermionic said:

The 68% figure will be for outdoors I’d imagine. Wait for the hygrometer to see what it’s like indoors. I lived in Edinburgh for a few years and it was one of the driest places I’ve lived (but I am from Wales…)

'Edinburgh' and 'dry' are not two words you often see written together!