Small-ish but noy tiny Synth

stickyfiddle

Following from @guitargeek62 's thread - what starter synth for adults?  

Where do I start? I have an itch for a synth with some proper controls so I can start getting my head around how that stuff works. I currently have a Roland VR730 which is a good-enough piano and great organ but the synth side isn't as good. I think 2 or 3 octaves feels right. I don't want to give up space for more, and 1 always feels like a toy. 

Definitely want a real keybed and not a ribbon thing, as part of this is also about encouraging me to actually play keys, so I don't want software and the musical input bit needs to work like a proper keyboard. And def polyphonic please. 

I've seen various things recommended - Korg Minilogue XD, Arturia MiniFreak, Behringer MS1. Can anyone point me to the pros & cons & limitations of any of those, and any other good alternatives? 

OR... while I'd prefer not to, I'd consider swapping the Roland for something like a Nord if it got me that extra stuff without losing my lovely Hammond sims with drawbars etc. 

joeW

Had a minilogue didn’t like it as much as the Novation Bass station 2 which can be found used for 200 or so.  Lots of physical knobs and dials and some of the sounds are really awesome.  Def worth a look 

monquixote

Buy my Yamaha Reface CS!

It's 100% the best synth for learning.

stickyfiddle

monquixote said:

Buy my Yamaha Reface CS!

It's 100% the best synth for learning.

Ta - the Reface stuff looks good as well. 

Ideally I need to see what I can get my hands on near me and go from there. I may have half an afternoon to kill in London on Friday. Any good shops worth a visit?

stickyfiddle

Ah bums - Reface range all have mini keys. I now remember why I dropped them off my shortlist 

monquixote

stickyfiddle said:

Ah bums - Reface range all have mini keys. I now remember why I dropped them off my shortlist 

Yamaha have the best mini keys though.

swiller

minibrute mk1 rock for the money.

octatonic

I'd suggest a BassStation 2, Arturia Mini Freak, Mini Brute or Behringer MS1.
But if you have Logic then you can do a lot with Alchemy, which is inbuilt.

Native Instruments Reaktor is the best way to learn synths though- but you build the synth from (virtual) components.

horse

stickyfiddle said:

Following from @guitargeek62 's thread - what starter synth for adults?  

Where do I start? I have an itch for a synth with some proper controls so I can start getting my head around how that stuff works. I currently have a Roland VR730 which is a good-enough piano and great organ but the synth side isn't as good. I think 2 or 3 octaves feels right. I don't want to give up space for more, and 1 always feels like a toy. 

Definitely want a real keybed and not a ribbon thing, as part of this is also about encouraging me to actually play keys, so I don't want software and the musical input bit needs to work like a proper keyboard. And def polyphonic please. 

I've seen various things recommended - Korg Minilogue XD, Arturia MiniFreak, Behringer MS1. Can anyone point me to the pros & cons & limitations of any of those, and any other good alternatives? 

OR... while I'd prefer not to, I'd consider swapping the Roland for something like a Nord if it got me that extra stuff without losing my lovely Hammond sims with drawbars etc. 

 Mini freak is mini keys I think
Minilogue is "slim keys" I think
Behringer ms1 is mono not poly I think

All good, but not sure they fit what you've asked about. 

Roland Gaia 2 probably fits the bill.

Modal Cobalt would have been a good option before the company got into trouble.

Behringer pro800 midi'd up to your Roland would give excellent value.

Behringer deepmind worth considering too.

monquixote

If keys are important the Uno Pro has a Fatar keybed as do the Modals.

They wouldn't be my pick for learning though.

gusman2x

Is a Deep Mind 6 too big?

that’d be the perfect real synth lots of knobs introduction. 

guitargeek62

I keep looking at this over the 'kid-friendly' synths and debating if it's worth the jump instead

https://www.andertons.co.uk/behringer-poly-d-analogue-4-voice-polyphonic-synthesizer/

stickyfiddle

horse said:

stickyfiddle said:

Following from @guitargeek62 's thread - what starter synth for adults?  

Where do I start? I have an itch for a synth with some proper controls so I can start getting my head around how that stuff works. I currently have a Roland VR730 which is a good-enough piano and great organ but the synth side isn't as good. I think 2 or 3 octaves feels right. I don't want to give up space for more, and 1 always feels like a toy. 

Definitely want a real keybed and not a ribbon thing, as part of this is also about encouraging me to actually play keys, so I don't want software and the musical input bit needs to work like a proper keyboard. And def polyphonic please. 

I've seen various things recommended - Korg Minilogue XD, Arturia MiniFreak, Behringer MS1. Can anyone point me to the pros & cons & limitations of any of those, and any other good alternatives? 

OR... while I'd prefer not to, I'd consider swapping the Roland for something like a Nord if it got me that extra stuff without losing my lovely Hammond sims with drawbars etc. 

 Mini freak is mini keys I think
Minilogue is "slim keys" I think
Behringer ms1 is mono not poly I think

All good, but not sure they fit what you've asked about. 

Roland Gaia 2 probably fits the bill.

Modal Cobalt would have been a good option before the company got into trouble.

Behringer pro800 midi'd up to your Roland would give excellent value.

Behringer deepmind worth considering too.

Balls! But ta! 

The IK Uno Pro and Modal stuff look neat. I think I need to get my hands on these things to see whether I can deal with the mini/slim keys. 

I can at least try the Yamaha and Roland stores tomorrow, and I think I can actually get Arturia stuff in the UAE with free returns (via the Virgin Megastores that still exist here!) so that might be a good starting point if small keys don't make me itch too much

stickyfiddle

guitargeek62 said:

I keep looking at this over the 'kid-friendly' synths and debating if it's worth the jump instead

https://www.andertons.co.uk/behringer-poly-d-analogue-4-voice-polyphonic-synthesizer/

That actually looks ace. I don't make a habit of buying Behringer kit but it could be just the ticket

Hurling_Fruitmig

stickyfiddle said:

guitargeek62 said:

I keep looking at this over the 'kid-friendly' synths and debating if it's worth the jump instead

https://www.andertons.co.uk/behringer-poly-d-analogue-4-voice-polyphonic-synthesizer/

That actually looks ace. I don't make a habit of buying Behringer kit but it could be just the ticket

Since I'm unlikely to ever be able to afford a real Minimoog, I've been considering giving in and getting one of these instead. The reviews are generally positive (if you ignore the Behringer grrrr! ones).

GoFish

Yep, the Boog has been on my radar for awhile.

My advice, don't conflate - synths are synths, keys are keys and controllers ...  may be the best compromise. Even with decent keybeds etc you are limited to the voices the synth can manage.

I'd say buy a synth to be a synth only, not an emulator. It's not space friendly but 1 board to do it all would be very costly and still full of compromises.  Nord  or the higher end Yamahas offer this but then you're a hop away from a workstation.

I would consider getting an atruria controller. They come in various shapes and sizes and have good connectivity. the 37 key keystep is good for a mini and offers extras. I think the 49 key keylab has full size bits but fewer features. They can each plug into all manner of soft and hard synths.

I have the YC Reface - much fun and the sounds are good. It's great for noodling or sketching ideas.

octatonic

Mini keys are not the problem most people think they are.

West Coast flavoured (Buchla inspired) synths don't really use keys at all, going for capacitance input or sequencers.
One of my favourite analogue synths is the Analog Four by Elektron.

It looks like this:


I've never missed actual keys on it because you don't play keys like you would on a piano.

Synthesis is more about sound design than it is about 'playing'.
You play with tone colour more than you strike notes.

Ruling out a synth because it has mini keys is like ruling out a 2 door sports car because it doesn't have a huge boot.
If that is what you want, buy an SUV, not a sports car.

If you want to play piano, buy a piano.
If you want a synth, buy a synth, play it like a synth, understand what a synth actually is.
It isn't a piano.

Who here can, without using google or chatgpt, give me a description of the components of a subtractive synthesiser, how they fit together to form the instrument?
This is the stuff to know..

What about additive, FM, AM, ring modulation, wavetable etc?
Knowing how this stuff fits together is more important than buying a keyboard with the right sized keys.

horse

stickyfiddle said:

guitargeek62 said:

I keep looking at this over the 'kid-friendly' synths and debating if it's worth the jump instead

https://www.andertons.co.uk/behringer-poly-d-analogue-4-voice-polyphonic-synthesizer/

That actually looks ace. I don't make a habit of buying Behringer kit but it could be just the ticket

 They call it a poly, but it's not really - it's what is known a paraphonic in reality, so between a mono and a poly. Still great though.

Likewise the Uno synth pro - I like mine but it's not a synth to learn on, and is a paraphonic mono not a poly.

personalnadir

It’s a groovebox and also a monophonic FM synth: I really enjoyed the Electron Model:Cycles. It’s a bit limited in its tonal palette, but it’s got one knob per function, there’s very little menu diving and it’s gives you the power of the Elektron sequencer. I only sold mine to upgrade to a Syntak.

i agree with the above: get a fun synth, then get a keyboard controller if you need it. Desktop (keyboard-less) synths also take up less room

if you want a real left field choice: the Zoia and Beebo both can be synths as well as guitar pedals. You’d need to invest in a good midi controller and do a bit of midi mapping to get the best out of them - but they can be very versatile synth boxes if you’re determined enough. I wouldn’t really recommend this as their primary function, but maybe others have gotten more joy out of it. They’re more aimed at replicating the beep-booping of modular synthesis. However I did find a fair few nice sounding synth patches on the Zoia which I enjoyed 

guitargeek62

It's the beep-booping and rhythmic sequencing that appeals most to me... I may well steer my boy's first synth more towards a 'proper' type and spend a little extra on it so that I can experiment with it too

stickyfiddle

guitargeek62 said:

It's the beep-booping and ryhtmic sequencing that appeals most to me... I may well steer my boy's first synth more towards a 'proper' type and spend a little extra on it so that I can experiment with it too

For me it’s mostly about copping classic 70s/80s stuff - but also learning how the various elements affect sound rather than just twiddling virtual knobs and hoping for the best. In aware of the concepts of LFO, VCO, FM, AM etc but no hands-on experience basically.

I think I have time for a nose in Westend DJ tomorrow who appear to have a load of stuff including Arturia so will try and have a chat with them and see what feels useful.