Diminishing returns?

Bradders

I have been thinking about something for some time now. I spend many hours as I'm sure many of us here do, watching acoustic guitar demos of hand made guitars from £1K up to £50K+. I thoroughly enjoy watching the the TNAG demos featuring Carl Miner, Will McNicol and the like who make every guitar sing! The hifi productions really make for a great resource to compare tones, body shape, luthier etc.

As I have listened to more and more I find myself wondering at what price point does the return on investment start to flatten off? By return I am specifically talking about tone and playability. Not so much aesthetics, novelty or anything like that.

I have had the privilege of owning a number of beautiful hand made guitars, Furch, Avalon, larrivee, McIlroy, Brook and Lowden. I currently own a Lowden 010 which is my preference out of all of the aforementioned, at the moment. I loving the cedar over mahogany in the Lowden Jumbo sized body. The strings have been on months and it still sounds incredible and responsive with much depth and sustain, not to mention that unique Lowden tone. 

The small shop hand made guitars that I've owned are the basic models which based on my experience and compared to what I've heard sound incredible, perhaps not as repsonsive, balanced(articulate) and as much sustain as a Tom Sands or Kostel, but 95% of people probably couldn't tell the difference. 

I have no personal experience with anything over £3,5K but to my ears, the tone of a guitar dosen't seem to improve much from around £6K. This is a potentially inflammatory statement as its incredibly subjective and there are some whos ears will hear things mine don't. I don't mean offend anyone.

I'd be interested to know what others think. There have been some £10K+ guitars up for sale on here and would like to know what the owners of those guitars think when comparing them to the £2K - £6K price bracket. 

stickyfiddle

Personally, the stuff that speaks to me the most has always been vintage-styled American sorts of things - essentially old classic Martin & Gibson designs. But the ones that really sing for my playing these days are from Bourgeois (including Touchstones at 2k and the simpler D-types up to about 6k) and Atkin (usually in the 2.8-3.8k range).

I've never played a guitar I didn't like from either of those, while Collings have always left me cold, and even the top-end stuff from M & G don't quite do have the same growl and zing from the upper mids. 

Like you, I don't think I've ever played a guitar above about 6k that does anything for me that isn't done perfectly by Bourgeois & Atkin stuff. FWIW that includes some ludicrously expensive fancy-wood Bourgeoises (Bourgeoisie?) that were beautiful but nowhere near as good for my tastes as my simple D18 style that I paid $4k for a couple of years ago. 

I do note that my favourites from these brands are aged/torrefied in some way. I don't know if that makes a difference though, because the Gibsons I've played with similar treatment I've tended to enjoy less than the regular-wood versions. 

earwighoney

Bradders said:

The small shop hand made guitars that I've owned are the basic models which based on my experience and compared to what I've heard sound incredible, perhaps not as repsonsive, balanced(articulate) and as much sustain as a Tom Sands or Kostel, but 95% of people probably couldn't tell the difference.

I remember watching a video on AGF, where a guy posted up a video of his latest $20k guitar, and he was playing a piece by a blues/ragtime guitarist who used a Taylor 310 for the recording/live.  The guy on AGF's guitar had an incredible guitar, made with the finest tonewoods, really responsive, huge number of overtones but to play the piece he chose, it was an absolute mess as there were so many clashing overtones, it just didn't sound right.

IMO, some of these modern guitars are incredibly made and designed instruments, but they can be quite specialised, whilst something like a standard D18/OM18 etc they are a bit wider in application.

stickyfiddle said:

Personally, the stuff that speaks to me the most has always been vintage-styled American sorts of things - essentially old classic Martin & Gibson designs. But the ones that really sing for my playing these days are from Bourgeois (including Touchstones at 2k and the simpler D-types up to about 6k) and Atkin (usually in the 2.8-3.8k range).

I've never played a guitar I didn't like from either of those, while Collings have always left me cold, and even the top-end stuff from M & G don't quite do have the same growl and zing from the upper mids. 

Like you, I don't think I've ever played a guitar above about 6k that does anything for me that isn't done perfectly by Bourgeois & Atkin stuff. FWIW that includes some ludicrously expensive fancy-wood Bourgeoises (Bourgeoisie?) that were beautiful but nowhere near as good for my tastes as my simple D18 style that I paid $4k for a couple of years ago.

Some Bourgeios's now are touching from £6k.  I remember playing a Bourg OM in Ivor's a while back and that was £6k, wonderful guitar.

stickyfiddle

earwighoney said:

Some Bourgeios's now are touching from £6k.  I remember playing a Bourg OM in Ivor's a while back and that was £6k, wonderful guitar.

Some are way above 6k now! I think the retail price on mine (aged tone ‘hog D) would now be close to £8k which is insane. That said I really need to check my insurance because if anything ever happens to it I’m gonna need another one… 

TheMadMick

I have 3 Avalons each a cutaway auditorium with a pick up. They are really very different which puts paid to the argument that price is a criterion.

earwighoney

@stickyfiddle have you ever played one of Laurent Brondel's guitars?

Ex Bourg employee, makes fantastic guitars. 

guitarjack66

To be absolutely honest and only based on youtube videos,anything much more than 1000-1500 pounds doesn't sound much different to my untrained ears. Some of them of even less value sound great for only a few hundred pounds. 

stickyfiddle

earwighoney said:

@stickyfiddle have you ever played one of Laurent Brondel's guitars?

Ex Bourg employee, makes fantastic guitars. 

Not a name I’m familiar with tbh. Will keep my eyes open for them

Art of Guitar up in Dubai has just started stocking Huss & Dalton so it’ll be interesting to see how those stack up.

I will say that the French polished Eastmans have tried have been really good around the 1k mark. Not at the Atkin level but up there with Gibson & Martin for half the price 

DavidR

Agree with thread. In answer to question, I think the diminishing returns start at £1.5K. Below that I would be so bold as to say that everyone is able to find an acoustic which suits. Above that you're either just buying bling or brand kudos.

Some makers sus this (Furch, Eastman, Auden, Yamaha, Dowina, JWJ, Sigma, Vintage, Epiphone, Tanglewood). Others don't citing production costs, wood ethics, quality (notably Gibson, Martin, PRS) but in fact they're just charging what they know a lot of customers will pay for the right vibe.

That's OK. Some players and collectors are willing to pay well over the odds for a variety of reasons all absolutely justifiable. It's just that you don't have to pay top whack for tone/quality and yumminess like you used to.

The Martin OM28 Modern Deluxe for example. A really marvellous guitar that anyone would love to own. Rightly popular and a marketplace standard. Martin Modern Deluxe Series | OM-28 Modern Deluxe (peachguitars.com). But spend 10 minutes on www and you will find virtually identical instruments for less that half the price. And you won't even notice the difference - or might even prefer the cheaper option.

Personal views obviously.

Tannin

DavidR said:

Agree with thread. In answer to question, I think the diminishing returns start at £1.5K. Below that I would be so bold as to say that everyone is able to find an acoustic which suits. Above that you're either just buying bling or brand kudos.

Some makers sus this (Furch, Eastman, Auden, Yamaha, Dowina, JWJ, Sigma, Vintage, Epiphone, Tanglewood). Others don't citing production costs, wood ethics, quality (notably Gibson .....  

Why isn't this post in the Friday Humour thread?

bermudianbrit

@stickyfiddle I have played a few Huss & Daltons and own one of them, a sinker hog and spruce OM which is a beautiful thing. The neck is a particular standout for me, because I find the Atkin necks a tad narrower than my ideal. I also own an Atkin dread which I chose over an equivalent Huss & Dalton. I think the H&D sound is a touch more balanced and friendly whilst still tending towards Martin grunt, whereas the Atkin roars in a very unrestrained way, which may be exactly right or exactly wrong for the application lol. If I'm playing fingerstyle things that H&D just gives and gives and gives. I think Santa Cruz is even friendlier and more balanced if I had to put them on a scale, which maybe is why the Santa Cruz ones I've played didn't come home with me. I also love bourgeois instruments though I don't (yet) own one. The word yet is doing a lot of work in that sentence lol. I think H&D are definitely right to be spoken about in the same sentence as Atkin or Bourgeois though. 

stickyfiddle

@bermudianbrit Good stuff - that's in line with my understanding of them

Santa Cruz is another one that doesn't work for me. I've played a few but found them a bit restrained and polite so not worth the extra cost, personally. Some would probably call that "finesse" against my brasher Bourg & Atkin  

None of this is exact science of course. I did have a Dove about 10 years ago that was a genuinely incredible guitar, but the neck was too wide & flat for me. Combined with a latent desire to have a Martin for a bit it left my ownership, and was last seen with @streethawk who I hope is enjoying as much as it deserves. 

Tannin

I am inclined to agree with @Bradders, though I've never played anything really expensive.

There comes a point where adding more "responsiveness" is counter-productive. The instrument becomes twitchy and over-reacts to any slight change in your technique. I don't like that. I want to concentrate on the music without having to think about the guitar. I don't want to be conscious of it, I just want it to take me where I want to go.

That said, there are certain styles of playing where that uber-responsiveness is exactly what the player wants. 

For me, I think the difference between a very good guitar and a truly excellent one isn't any one particular quality, it is the aplomb with which is morphs from one thing to another thing while always remaining true to what it is. Of my lot, the Maton WA May (hand-made by their former head luthier Andy Allen, now sadly retired) epitomises that all-round ability better than anything else I've played. I often think that the Cole Clark Angel 3, the Furch Red, and perhaps the new Brook should be ranked alongside it in that regard ... but of the WA May, there is no doubt. It is unquestionably the instrument I'd  pick up first out of a burning building. 

It seems worthwhile to note that all of those guitars sit in the AUD $6-8k range (say about £4000 GBP, give or take). 

But it is also worth noting that the Maton Messiah - just a very good factory guitar worth about $4000 isn't embarrassed oin that company - and neither is the vastly cheaper SRS-60 which would sell new, if they made more of them, for a mere $2500.

If I want that uber-responsive style of instrument, my hand-made Mineur fills that niche (and the Brook leans in that direction), but I shouldn't be surprised if there is a Lowden in my future - Lowden seem to do that very, very well.   

Pjon

Isn't this much the same with any consumable items, especially those where hobbyists get serious and want something special? 

My main two hobbies, other than guitar, are riding bikes and walking/birdwatching. I've got a pair of binoculars that cost a couple of hundred pound - would a Swarovski equivalent costing 10 times the price allow me to see birds clearer? Of course they would, but that doesn't make my enjoyment 10x more. And, of course, I may not be skilled enough to justify them fully - a gull still looks like a gull, not a juvenile female Mediterranean gull!.

I'm on safer ground with bikes - I've been riding for long enough and am competent enough to justify spending many thousands on them. They'll be well used to their limits. Having said that, I was riding a  £10k Bold full suspension mountain bike earlier. That's about £4k more than the most expensive pedal bike I've ever bought - it's not going to make me a better rider than my own bikes - well maybe marginally - but is very nice to look at.

malcolmkindness

It depends hugely on whereabouts in the world the guitar is made, it's unrealistic to expect anyone to make consistently good guitars in a western economy for less than about €3000 each. 
The same quality of guitar can be made in Vietnam for about €900. Above these prices you are paying for "bling" or the reputation of a particular builder.

I have a couple of American guitars which, if ordered today, would cost over €10,000 each and they are different, but no better than a recent build I received from a local luthier for a quarter of that.

earwighoney

malcolmkindness said:

I have a couple of American guitars which, if ordered today, would cost over €10,000 each and they are different, but no better than a recent build I received from a local luthier for a quarter of that.

Who is the local luthier? Ciaran McNally?

Wazmeister

I think there is always the case of diminishing returns, with any high end stuff...

You just have to play them, and see which one you 'connect' with.

I went to Coda Music with £6-7k to spend on an acoustic.

I was certain I would come away with a Lowden, but it was a used CS D28 Martin that won me over... and I saved about £3k !!!

malcolmkindness

earwighoney said:

malcolmkindness said:

I have a couple of American guitars which, if ordered today, would cost over €10,000 each and they are different, but no better than a recent build I received from a local luthier for a quarter of that.

Who is the local luthier? Ciaran McNally?

No, Domhnall O'Rainne in Galway. Ciaran is a great builder and a friend of mine, but I like seeking out new talent.

earwighoney

malcolmkindness said:

No, Domhnall O'Rainne in Galway. Ciaran is a great builder and a friend of mine, but I like seeking out new talent.

Thanks for the info.  I saw one of his guitars at Mak's but it sold before I was able to make the trip to try it.  I'm not entirely sure but there seem to be a lot of great guitar makers in Ireland/NI.  Long may it continue.

Littlejonny

Of course, from a practical point of view, the quality of a steel string acoustic doesn’t matter beyond about £1K: no one gigs an acoustic unamplified, and in my experience, all the lovely dynamic range and bass of an expensive acoustic doesn’t make it easier to record. In fact, I find myself rolling off the bass a bit even on solo acoustic stuff. 

There’s no pick-up out there that can really do justice to an expensive guitar, and they all sound virtually the same amplified. A Martin D-45 with a pick-up may as well be a Sigma. Mic em up and you’re in a similar scenario - the difference between a more affordable and a high end acoustic can be evened out with volume and EQ.

Of course, in the living room, you hear and feel the difference and the difference can be vast.

ToneControl

I've owned 2 Bourgeois, 3 Goodall, lots of Avalons, many factory-built and more expensive classical makers.

Rarely, you can find a big-factory built guitar that is "good enough". It does happen, but often at greater cost.

Starting around £3k, the smaller builders produce some amazingly responsive guitars, Some now charge £5k for that entry level. I can hear and feel it, others can too. Probably not everyone. The £10k+ ones can be better, but as always, not as much better for the money.

With pickups, it's largely pointless. I think Tommy Emmanuel had a Maton made from plywood to demonstrate this