Diminishing returns?

DavidR

ToneControl said:

Starting around £3k, the smaller builders produce some amazingly responsive guitars, Some now charge £5k for that entry level. I can hear and feel it, others can too. Probably not everyone. The £10k+ ones can be better, but as always, not as much better for the money.

Yes, exactement.

This is art and not science and therefore not subject to scientific principles. Music is much more than that imho.

But....                             
:-)

Were science faced with the issues within this thread it would, in an attempt to remove bias do a Double Blind Trial.

A double blind trial is a method of attempting to remove, some at least, of the bias which enters into all human decision-making when we are attempting to make a choice or decide what is best. On this issue for example, I would, definitely have a bias towards cheaper instruments because I happen to think that I can save money; I don't have enough of it (money) and, anyway, I would probably spend it on other things. Others would have bias because they feel costly guitars bring an added quality for which expending a few extra K is worthwhile. Fair enough. But which is correct for you?

A double blind trial would be done on the minimum number of people to provide the necessary statistical power (look it up - Google statistical p[ower, type 1 and type 2 errors).

To continue. If, for example, they were looking for a dreadnought, they would, one by one and apart from each other, be blindfolded and asked to assess as many dreadnoughts as practical whilst being kept unaware of the name of the instrument they were playing. Then an analysis would be done correlating 'marks out of ten' with the cost of the guitar.

The findings would show (or would they?) that for many the supposed link between perceived quality and cost would be a spurious correlation, as @ToneControl describes above. I'm fairly confident I would be in that group, or at least I would be surprised if I wasn't. There would be another group who were of the opinion that expensive meant better but were unable to demonstrate that ability. And then there would be some people who could do it it partially and finally some, perhaps not many, who could do it consistently.

None of this matters if you are happy with whatever choice you make and have the desire to make it and enough money to spend.

ToneControl

Years ago I sat for 2 hours at Tamco in Brighton testing loads of small-workshop high end acoustics.
Some I didn't like, some I did, the best left similarly priced Taylor, Martin, Gibson for dead.

When I tried some Martins in the main dealers shop in Denmark St 10+ years ago, the £12k ones sounded as good as my £5k USA ones that I had bought used for half price.


I'll watch these later, don't have time today:

slacker

Wazmeister said:

I think there is always the case of diminishing returns, with any high end stuff...

You just have to play them, and see which one you 'connect' with.

I went to Coda Music with £6-7k to spend on an acoustic.

I was certain I would come away with a Lowden, but it was a used CS D28 Martin that won me over... and I saved about £3k !!!

I did something simular. Walked in for sinker went out with an om28. 

malcolmkindness

earwighoney said:

malcolmkindness said:

No, Domhnall O'Rainne in Galway. Ciaran is a great builder and a friend of mine, but I like seeking out new talent.

Thanks for the info.  I saw one of his guitars at Mak's but it sold before I was able to make the trip to try it.  I'm not entirely sure but there seem to be a lot of great guitar makers in Ireland/NI.  Long may it continue.

There are indeed, if you ever come to Ireland for a holiday you are welcome to visit me and try some good guitars.

Timcito

Between 2007-15 or so, I went through guitard by such as Martin, Collings. Larrivee, Gibson  and Taylor costing up to $4000 - a Martin 000 42. However, Eastman blew all that apart for me. They do everything that these prestigious makes and models do but for a fraction of the price.

Now, whether some really high-ticket luthiers would be noticeably better, I don't know. No doubt some do, although I have to say, my first-ever 'good' guitar, a 000 in cedar and mahogany, was handcrafted individually by a celebrated British luthier, and although it looked great, it never sounded particularly amazing.

malcolmkindness

Timcito said:

Between 2007-15 or so, I went through guitard by such as Martin, Collings. Larrivee, Gibson  and Taylor costing up to $4000 - a Martin 000 42. However, Eastman blew all that apart for me. They do everything that these prestigious makes and models do but for a fraction of the price.

Now, whether some really high-ticket luthiers would be noticeably better, I don't know. No doubt some do, although I have to say, my first-ever 'good' guitar, a 000 in cedar and mahogany, was handcrafted individually by a celebrated British luthier, and although it looked great, it never sounded particularly amazing.

There's no doubt, Eastman make some great guitars for very reasonable money.

Bradders

I have certainly found it really interesting and insightful reading about the varied experiences and perspectives on the subject. I think this thread would be a great read as a buying guide for someone who is looking to venture into handmade guitar territory.

Reading about the American brands has inspired me to take the opportunity sometime to go and try out more American based luthier built guitars. In particular I'd love to try Bourgeois, H & D, Collings, Santa Cruz and Goodall plus others. I have a strong inclination toward Goodall in particular. 

I've not had a chance to try any of the Chinese guitars such as Eastman or Auden, I have been on the look out for an Auden Emily Rose cedar hog with the 45mm nut width, the demos sound fantastic! 

The Lowden 010 that I have cost me just under 2K and was built in 2002/03. Its the first guitar I've owned that responds in the way I want it to. It really suits my style of playing. I've really gotten into more fingerstyle playing and tend to be lighter in touch and the Lowden does a lot of the work. The neck feels great, it feels like a classical guitar. The action is just right and finger sliding is smooth. It is a buttery smooth playing experience all round and I can literally play for hours and not tire. the only area that does strain after a while is my shoulder due to the body size and depth. The tone is just wonderful, it has that Celtic dry woody folk sound with a kind of wild diffuse owing to the body size. Fantastic volume, the sustain is just right for me and I think the combination of cedar over hog helps control the overtones and rumble of the big Lowdens. I love how understated it is as a guitar and its built to be a workhorse. I've actually for once not been window shopping for guitars as I feel I've settlled on a guitar that is right for. At least for the forseable future! 

 

mgaw

@Bradders i have a Collings om2ht and am about 10 minutes drive from you, if you fancy a get together 

Soupman

@Bradders I also love the tone from my Lowden - an 025, cedar over rosewood - and have to say you describe it very eloquently!
 
 

thomasross20

Regardless cost I prefer the Larrivee voicing. Bonus, they are built sturdily enough such that my luthier has never had one in for e.g. a neck reset. Played some customs over £20k, tried a £7k Collings today and £10.5k Martin but over all them, I genuinely prefer Larrivee. And they're affordable. That includes Furch's, Yamaha, Eastman etc (the upcharge over those brands is worth it to me). I just love the Larrivee craftsmanship and it's tone. I give a shout to Atkin whose guitars imo have always played and sounded better than the well advertised Martin's at local stores. Those Atkins can be pretty good. 

Btw you can get cracking Northwood and Halcyons (custom builds) imported from USA/Canada for less than factory builds... These guitars (from ex Larrivee luthiers) are astounding. Canadian luthiery is special.

stickyfiddle

thomasross20 said:

Regardless cost I prefer the Larrivee voicing. 

I think this is a very valuable thing to work out. Every brand tends to have a voice, in terms of how they build a guitar and how that affects the sound. And - crucially - what works for you is always going to be very personal

After trying a shitload of stuff over the last few years I now understand exactly what usually makes an acoustic really work for me, which is a loud instrument overall, with plenty of upper-midrange “heft”. Atkin seems to be the company that delivers that the best, and particularly with their Gibson-style shapes.

Equally, the likes of Lowden obviously make spectacular instruments but sonically they just don’t give me what I need

thomasross20

Thanks, yeah the voicing is so important. I actually love the bass thump that Martin's give and their woody tone but overall, without going too much into it, I just like the balanced Larrivee sound and find it richer. For me. The Atkin voicing is amazing... For £3k, practically luthier built guitar, I think these are great. It was their essential OM which really grabbed me. Oh, and the dustbowl. Haven't pulled the trigger but I could see myself doing so in future. I like their aged finish, too. 

Robustness is also important to me. I don't want to be paying for neck resets and all that nonsense. 

Anything over £3k requires a lot of contemplation.

malcolmkindness

It's interesting that we are all so different, I have never played a Larrivee that satisfied me!

thomasross20

Fair game, world world be boring if we were all the same

Timcito

For those that like Larrivee, have you found you need 'a firmer hand' if you're a fingerpicker? I've owned a P09, an L05, an L03R, an SD50, and had an OM Simple 6 pass though my hands. With the exception of the L05, which sounded great with bare fingers + nail, I found that I needed fingerpicks to bring them to life. 

thomasross20

I put 11s on and is fine. They definitely mature a lot after 2-3 year mark. I recall AB'ing my OM02 Vs a £5500 custom shop Martin adi/sinker and the store guy couldn't believe how responsive my old £600 OM02 is. Anyway back to topic.. guess it all depends how much money you've got and whether you think it's all worth it. I have found my balance point and at the £2-3k mark I'm happy with what I can get.

Those new Martin SC guitars are cool. I also really liked a £250 all blackwood Cort

streethawk

stickyfiddle said:

@bermudianbrit Good stuff - that's in line with my understanding of them

Santa Cruz is another one that doesn't work for me. I've played a few but found them a bit restrained and polite so not worth the extra cost, personally. Some would probably call that "finesse" against my brasher Bourg & Atkin  

None of this is exact science of course. I did have a Dove about 10 years ago that was a genuinely incredible guitar, but the neck was too wide & flat for me. Combined with a latent desire to have a Martin for a bit it left my ownership, and was last seen with @streethawk who I hope is enjoying as much as it deserves. 

I am enjoying it but sadly am having to list it in the classifieds. Too many bills, too many guitars.