Hot pickups

NelsonP

Are hot pickups a legacy of the days when amps didn't have much gain and you had to hit the front end of your jtm/plexi/superlead hard to get it, preferably with a boost or tubescreamer too.

Because these days most 2 channel amps offer gain for days. So maybe you don't need high output pickups. e.g. Gibson 500t, Seymour Duncan JB, Dimarzio Super Distortion etc

Are you better off with lower output pickups if your amp already has a ton of available gain?

Bennyboy-UK

Here’s a recent thread covering a lot of ground on pretty much that subject:

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/264352/

NelsonP

Yeah, that's it exactly. Thanks @Bennyboy-UK ;

OilCityPickups

It's a perennial subject ... the answer is that there are two different approaches to gain ... both valid. 

Funkfingers

NelsonP said:

Are hot pickups a legacy of the days when amps didn't have much gain and you had to hit the front end of your jtm/plexi/superlead hard to get it?

Yes.

OilCityPickups

Funkfingers said:

NelsonP said:

Are hot pickups a legacy of the days when amps didn't have much gain and you had to hit the front end of your jtm/plexi/superlead hard to get it?

Yes.

I'd have to disagree with you there. An awful lot of people still use valve amps and get their drive 'the old fashioned way' because it gives a sound they prefer. Hot pickups are just a choice like any other. 

Funkfingers

OilCityPickups said:

An awful lot of people still use valve amps and get their drive 'the old fashioned way' because it gives a sound they prefer.

i.e. Me and my Seymour Duncan Antiquity P90 fixation.

nacnudnai

Bennyboy-UK said:

Here’s a recent thread covering a lot of ground on pretty much that subject:

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/264352/

My comment in this thread summarises my opinion on this...but, I don't think it's fair to say they are a "legacy". Hot pickups will feel completely different to cooler pickups in their response, feel, tightness etc.

I've never found a way to get a PAF to sound like a 500t or a Warpig, no matter what.

Epsilon

I don't think so. High output pickups sound different, they don't just drive the amp harder.

If you take a high output pickup and a PAF style and dial in the same amp for gain parity between the two, they will still have very different tonal characteristics. You can't get a PAF to sound like a Super Distortion, and vice versa.

OilCityPickups

Epsilon said:

I don't think so. High output pickups sound different, they don't just drive the amp harder.

If you take a high output pickup and a PAF style and dial in the same amp for gain parity between the two, they will still have very different tonal characteristics. You can't get a PAF to sound like a Super Distortion, and vice versa.

The problem is this.

Take a pickup and wind it with say 5000 turns per coil 42awg wire and you get a PAF with what everyone would consider a low output and a DC resistance of say 7.8k 

Now take that exact same pickup and give it 5000 turns per coil  of 44awg wire and the DC resistance will go to to say 12k.
The output will be EXACTLY the same in terms of volume 

Now the resonant peak will have changed and the output will be more compressed but the volume will be the same. How hard it hits your amp will be the same. 

So if you want natural compression you go for a pickup wound with finer wire ... it's not 'hotter' because it has a higher DC resistance that's just 'idiot speak' - a pickups actual output is AC or alternating current.   

Neilybob

For the best hot pickups I bake my at gas mark 8 for 1-2 hours turning halfway through.  Lol

Ash's knowledge is amazing in this field and it's definitely helped me understand pickups better. 

My current favourite pickups are either my Bill Lawrence L90's from the 70's because they sound so clear and dynamic in my 335 or @OilCityPickups nocaster tele pickup/ @Mojopickups gold foil combo in my custom made tele. 

OilCityPickups

Neilybob said:

For the best hot pickups I bake my at gas mark 8 for 1-2 hours turning halfway through.  Lol

Ash's knowledge is amazing in this field and it's definitely helped me understand pickups better. 

My current favourite pickups are either my Bill Lawrence L90's from the 70's because they sound so clear and dynamic in my 335 or @OilCityPickups nocaster tele pickup/ @Mojopickups gold foil combo in my custom made tele. 

As I mentioned elsewhere there is a book in production at the moment - there is so much bullshit and misinformation about pickups, their history, construction etc ... that I saw a bit of a gap in the market. Essentially my notes from my pickup winding courses combined with many hundreds of hours restoring valuable vintage pickups and making new ones ... all distilled down. 

guitarmangler

OilCityPickups said:

Epsilon said:

I don't think so. High output pickups sound different, they don't just drive the amp harder.

If you take a high output pickup and a PAF style and dial in the same amp for gain parity between the two, they will still have very different tonal characteristics. You can't get a PAF to sound like a Super Distortion, and vice versa.

The problem is this.

Take a pickup and wind it with say 5000 turns per coil 42awg wire and you get a PAF with what everyone would consider a low output and a DC resistance of say 7.8k 

Now take that exact same pickup and give it 5000 turns per coil  of 44awg wire and the DC resistance will go to to say 12k.
The output will be EXACTLY the same in terms of volume 

Now the resonant peak will have changed and the output will be more compressed but the volume will be the same. How hard it hits your amp will be the same. 

So if you want natural compression you go for a pickup wound with finer wire ... it's not 'hotter' because it has a higher DC resistance that's just 'idiot speak' - a pickups actual output is AC or alternating current.   

That’s what I hear/feel with traditional higher output pickups, the compression. Everything sort of ‘pops’ a little easier. You can use less amp gain, if you want, and get the same effect as having more. Thing is, you can add more compression with a pedal, but you can’t take it away from the pickup. 

Of course, lots of pickups now can be high output and with much less compression (great for low tunings) so that blurs the line somewhat, with how to define them.

OilCityPickups

guitarmangler said:

OilCityPickups said:

Epsilon said:

I don't think so. High output pickups sound different, they don't just drive the amp harder.

If you take a high output pickup and a PAF style and dial in the same amp for gain parity between the two, they will still have very different tonal characteristics. You can't get a PAF to sound like a Super Distortion, and vice versa.

The problem is this.

Take a pickup and wind it with say 5000 turns per coil 42awg wire and you get a PAF with what everyone would consider a low output and a DC resistance of say 7.8k 

Now take that exact same pickup and give it 5000 turns per coil  of 44awg wire and the DC resistance will go to to say 12k.
The output will be EXACTLY the same in terms of volume 

Now the resonant peak will have changed and the output will be more compressed but the volume will be the same. How hard it hits your amp will be the same. 

So if you want natural compression you go for a pickup wound with finer wire ... it's not 'hotter' because it has a higher DC resistance that's just 'idiot speak' - a pickups actual output is AC or alternating current.   

That’s what I hear/feel with traditional higher output pickups, the compression. Everything sort of ‘pops’ a little easier. You can use less amp gain, if you want, and get the same effect as having more. Thing is, you can add more compression with a pedal, but you can’t take it away from the pickup. 

Of course, lots of pickups now can be high output and with much less compression (great for low tunings) so that blurs the line somewhat, with how to define them.

Unless you are talking active pickups, the only thing that has changed in the last 60 years of pickup making is the use of more powerful magnet arrays .. there is no way to make a powerful passive pickup in a traditional form factor pickup with less compression by any other means other than more exotic magnets or thicker/less wire. There is no magic wire or winding technique that lowers compression other than those techniques. For example If you 'scatter wind' you loose bobbin space because scatter wound coils are fatter ... so you reduce the wire ... and so reduce the compression. 
In passive pickups there are basically no major innovations left - it's all juggling with well known 'levers' ... more coil offset ... or different gauges wire on each coil (which Hofner were doing in the early 60s in spite of certain US companies taking out a patent on that) it's all been done. 
It's just that nowadays we have more materials and technology to make consistency far higher and results more measurable.