Pedal switcher advice wanted

PC_Dave

I've never really bothered with switchers before, but I'm now in a band that covers a lot of ground and I've realised I'm doing more tap dancing than I want to, so thought I'd dip my toe in the waters of pedal switchers. I've been doing some reading up and research, but was hoping for some more real world based opinions. 

I'll have to build a new board around whatever I decide to go on, but the current board is as follows:

Tuner > Lightspeed (always on) > TS > Protein > Revival Drive Compact > Amp

In the effects loop I have:

Flashback > Hall of Fame (always on) > Spark Mini boost

I'd be looking to replicate the same set up, and utilise the separate/split of the Protein via the TRS option. Also, I'm looking to swap the Flashback with a Keeley Halo in the near future, so that needs to be a consideration.

Any ideas what switchers could help me with this? I'll be needing the ability to store pre-sets and change routing options etc.

I will say that I'm not flush with cash, so probably not at the GigRig level of switcher, alas.

andy1839

I can only speak about the Boss ES-8 and the Harley Benton FXL8 Pro.

Only the ES-8 will let you swap the order of pedals though.

Since I started using a switcher I haven't looked back.  There's so many options. 

I have used my Duellist with the TRS to mono cables into two separate loops. 

The FXL8 Pro is great, but you're limited to 4 into the loop, 4 in the front and you can't change the order.

PC_Dave

andy1839 said:

I can only speak about the Boss ES-8 and the Harley Benton FXL8 Pro.

Only the ES-8 will let you swap the order of pedals though.

Since I started using a switcher I haven't looked back.  There's so many options. 

I have used my Duellist with the TRS to mono cables into two separate loops. 

The FXL8 Pro is great, but you're limited to 4 into the loop, 4 in the front and you can't change the order.

Thanks Andy - did/do you use the effects loop on your amp? How does that work in terms of connecting the ES-8? This is where i'm getting mildly confused.

andy1839

I've sent you a PM

vasselmeyer

I went down the pedal switching route a few years ago with the Boss ES-8 which is an amazing bit of kit. I controlled pedal order, amp switching and midi commands along with the ability to run loops in parallel. Ultimately my back couldn't take carrying around the flightcase it was in so I picked up a Boss MS-3 multi FX which has three loops which you can move anywhere in the chain, but not change the order. I was able to retire a bunch of my pedals (delay, mods, compressor etc) and just use my favourite dirt pedals in the loop. I can still do midi and amp switching if I want. I'm primarily a live guitarist so at gig volume no one, even me(!), can tell if I'm using my Source Audio Nemesis for delays or whatever is built into the MS-3. The MS-3 can work either in patch mode or stompbox mode and with a bit of understanding about how the programming works I was easily able to replicate my ES-8 board in a quarter the size and weight of the ES-8 board. All I'm missing is the ability to change the order of my analogue loops and being able to use parallel effects, neither of which I care about.

I also have a Boss GT-1000 which is a multi-fx and amp modeller if I decide to go direct and not carry an amp with me.

TheBigDipper

I run a Boss ES-5. 5 loops and only mono, but it still has the ability to reorder the loops and send/receive MIDI. It's slightly smaller than an ES-8. Seems really well built. I recently added a WIDI Jack to the MIDI in, which lets my iPad app (Songbook Pro) send a PC command whenever I change the song I'm looking at and the ES-5 loads the correct preset to start the song. :-) 

Neilybob

+1 on the Boss ES5 switcher. 

Here is mine. Just got the Line 6 M5 so I need to learn how to control it with Midi. 

There is video on YT of a guy who controlled his Halo via the ctrl outlet and a TRS cable might be worth checking out. 

I have also seen people use the four cable method with the ES8. 

english_bob

^^^ I've been able to bodge 4CM with my ES-5 by using one loop for a pedal I can switch on and off with MIDI and for the send/return to the front end of the amp. With the Keeley Halo you'd be able to use it like this:

Guitar -> Lightspeed (always on so no loop required) -> ES-5 in -> LOOP 1: TS -> LOOP 2: Protein 1 -> LOOP 3: Protein 2 -> LOOP 4: RD Compact -> LOOP 5: To amp input / fx send -> Halo -> ES-5 out -> HoF -> Spark -> FX return.

It's not perfect- you'd have to switch the Spark boost on and off separately (although the ES-5 can boost the output volume and as such might make the Spark redundant)- but it might serve.

If needed, you can add a second loop switcher device controlled by the ES-5. Bright Onion makes a dual loop controlled by a TRS input that could run off one of the ES-5's TRS outs. Alternatively, there are small MIDI controlled switchers with more loops. Still cheaper and more compact than an ES-8, although obviously you can't change the order of the loops in your "slave" switcher.

prowla

I have a GigRig Quartermaster loop switcher; it's just very good.

PC_Dave

Thanks all for the info so far - i'm still confused how to hook up the switcher to the FX loop - does the send from the amp go to a loop and then from a loop back to the return with the pedals "in" those loops? @andy1839 will give you a shout.

TheBigDipper

PC_Dave said:

Thanks all for the info so far - i'm still confused how to hook up the switcher to the FX loop - does the send from the amp go to a loop and then from a loop back to the return with the pedals "in" those loops? @andy1839 will give you a shout.

Not quite what you suggested. This is how you do it.

Guitar --> ES-5 guitar input
 -- "Pre" effect pedals sit here in the signal chain, connected into ES-5 loops
ES-5 loop send (whichever one you choose, they're moveable) --> amplifier guitar input 
-- guitar preamp circuitry sits here
Amplfier FX send --> ES-5 loop return that you used earlier
-- "Post effect pedals sit here if you want them, in loops
ES-5 output --> more effect pedals if it's OK to run them at the end of your chain and you can use MIDI to turn them on/off
Last effect pedal --> Amplifier FX return
-- guitar power amp circuitry sits here

vasselmeyer

PC_Dave said:

Thanks all for the info so far - i'm still confused how to hook up the switcher to the FX loop - does the send from the amp go to a loop and then from a loop back to the return with the pedals "in" those loops? @andy1839 will give you a shout.

That's correct. The point about a decent switcher is that pedals can go anywhere and they are moved about by the logic on the switcher. So in the ES-5 you could go 1-2-3-4-5 or 1-3-4-2-5 depending on your whim. Some switchers have a dedicated FX loop, some just let you pick one and you decide where it goes in your signal path. For those switchers with limited loops, you might want to keep some effects, e.g. delay > reverb out of the loops and so you might have wah-input-1-2-3-4-5-output-del-rev and you can move loops 1-5 anywhere or use one of them for your amp send-return.

Snags

If you want to dip your toe in the water for low cost, I have a PXL-Pro 8 that I no longer use or need. Essentially the same as what Harley Benton put out now (fairly sure it's physically the same thing, just a different badge).

It will cover pre-set combos, but won't let you change pedal order. No problem doing 4CM with it, that's how I used it (doing 4CM gets you four loops in front and four in the loop, tuner can be on a dedicated feed so doesn't waste a loop).

For basic switching it was absolutely fine, and built like a tank. I just don't use that many pedals in one hit these days.

impmann

I had the Boss thing... I found the menu system a royal PITA for programming, and changing anything quickly in rehearsal involved grabbing the manual and frantic stabbing of buttons. Others seem to get on with the Boss menu system but I thought it was pants.

I sent mine back and bought a secondhand Gigrig G2 - and have not looked back. I think you'd probably get one even cheaper now that G3 has come along. 

PC_Dave

Thanks all, maybe i'm overthinking it all and should just stick with what I have at the moment - the G2 seems overkill for the small amount of pedals I have, and if I look at smaller units then I need to consider MIDI switchers and my brain seems to want to explode.

oeljadi

Have you considered the Morningstar stuff? If you pair one of the controllers with a midi controllable loop switcher like the ML5 (or there are other options from Morningstar or others) might work? You might need one loop switcher for pedals in front and another for those in the loop. 

You can hide the loop switchers under pedalboards pretty easily usually, and the Morningstar controllers are not massive. The other advantage is that they’re sort of modular in that if you need more loops you just add more loop switchers.

Some of the controllers also have TRS control so you can switch amp channels and the like.

PC_Dave

oeljadi said:

Have you considered the Morningstar stuff? If you pair one of the controllers with a midi controllable loop switcher like the ML5 (or there are other options from Morningstar or others) might work? You might need one loop switcher for pedals in front and another for those in the loop. 

You can hide the loop switchers under pedalboards pretty easily usually, and the Morningstar controllers are not massive. The other advantage is that they’re sort of modular in that if you need more loops you just add more loop switchers.

Some of the controllers also have TRS control so you can switch amp channels and the like.

I was looking at them, but I think i'm ending up in the realms of more faff that it's worth. I think i'll stick with what i've got and see where the main issues are and have a rethink,

rsvmark

Boss ES8 user here.

Great bit of kit and will be able to do everything you described in the op. Dunno about other switchers but you need a minimum of 6 loops for your set up plus 1 for the 4cm which is the vol loop on the Boss es8. It’s simple and easy to understand once you have read the manual. I bought mine for exactly the same reason as you- programmability and avoiding tap dancing.

Since then I have explored the additional functionality and massively improved my sound. This includes:

Stereo or wet dry (needs another amp obvs)
Reordering pedals for specific patches
Parallel signal paths (2 pedals at once but separate)
Split signal paths for wet dry
Cleaner signals
Using a bank per song for multiple patches
Midi control of multiple pedals
Using the editor to organise all banks
Separate tuner out removing it from the chain (not that this was a massive problem anyway)
Mute function at gigs

Added benefit of having fun and enjoying geeky pedal shit.

I am going to upgrading later this year to a G3. Why? Simply because I have run out of loops and want more programmability. 

So my advice is definitely do it. Don’t underestimate how much fun you can have with these things and buy one with more features that you think you might need. You never know what you might discover or what extra pedals you can add!

Jono111

The other advantage of a switcher is finding a faulty cable is way easier

PC_Dave

oeljadi said:

Have you considered the Morningstar stuff? If you pair one of the controllers with a midi controllable loop switcher like the ML5 (or there are other options from Morningstar or others) might work? You might need one loop switcher for pedals in front and another for those in the loop. 

You can hide the loop switchers under pedalboards pretty easily usually, and the Morningstar controllers are not massive. The other advantage is that they’re sort of modular in that if you need more loops you just add more loop switchers.

Some of the controllers also have TRS control so you can switch amp channels and the like.

Thinking out loud, but if I went down the ML5 route, i'm assuming I could put the pedals I want in the loop via the ML5 and control it via MIDI from something like an ES5? Or am I barking up the wrong tree there?

Gassage

Roadrage.
Make sure you've a buffer pedal on. Job done.