Is now the time to finally switch to digital?!

equalsql

thomasw88 said:

...
 I don't think the digital drives on the modellers compare to analog drive pedals.  I've found that with the line 6, Boss, Fractal etc effects, even had a couple of Strymon Sunsets.       They just  weren't anywhere as good as what I have on my board.  Delays,  modulations, compressers, eq etc are all perfectly usable in the main, although I haven't found a modeller tremolo which can get close to a strymon mobius or flint etc.

I have to agree with your opinion on the drives not being great. I use a HX Effects and love the modulation and delay effects but use my own drive pedals via the send and return routings on the device. 

Majorscale

I'm a huge valve and pedal fan but due to the practicality of gigging in a guitar+vox duo (with backing tracks) I recentlyish dipped my toe back into the digital world and bought a Helix Floor. Now, I'm the last person who wants to menu-dive and tweak hundreds of parameters, read endless reddit posts or watch a load of youtube tips and tricks videos just to make a piece of gear sound good...it's frankly all too much & I simply want good results fast...y'know like with a real amp and real pedals!

My first results with the Helix at a duo gig weren't mind blowing in all honesty, it sounded OK and was a very practical solution, but some of the tones weren't "there" for me. I then found success by shortcutting all the tweaking pain and bought John Cordys' "Cover Band presets" pack, thus leaving the hours or programming to him! I just added a couple of missing effects that I needed which took minutes, not hours.

Last weekend I had two full band gigs and as an experiment night one was performed with the Helix, the second night with my amp and pedals. End result I really like both! To me the amp and pedals route is still king from a feel and ultimate tone perspective, but the Helix did better than expected and was significantly easier to set up at the venue! I will continue to gig both rigs, the choice driven by the act / venue / genre...

willo

Yeah this is my experience. Buying an aftermarket preset and tweaking that, staying focused on one or two base amps, and a super quick setup rules. At our last gig I was packed up and off stage within 1 minute. I don't see how my old amp and pedalboard setup was more efficient or engineer-friendly.

And tone wise, I'm getting more compliments now than I did with my Marshall - I don't know if it's quantifiably better, and it certainly can't be more accurate than the Marshall itself, but I can better match amps with guitars and songs, and by going to FOH via DI gives me a lot of clarity and the engineer more control over the mix. A 100W Marshall was an imperfect solution for that. 

Finally for home and recording, I can work at any hour without waking up the kids and that is invaluable to me. A digital solution for that is certainly better IME than a Marshall that's had all the guts attenuated out of it. 

Danny1969

equalsql said:

thomasw88 said:

...
 I don't think the digital drives on the modellers compare to analog drive pedals.  I've found that with the line 6, Boss, Fractal etc effects, even had a couple of Strymon Sunsets.       They just  weren't anywhere as good as what I have on my board.  Delays,  modulations, compressers, eq etc are all perfectly usable in the main, although I haven't found a modeller tremolo which can get close to a strymon mobius or flint etc.

I have to agree with your opinion on the drives not being great. I use a HX Effects and love the modulation and delay effects but use my own drive pedals via the send and return routings on the device. 

I feel the same, the digital drives just sound terrible to my ears. I love digital delay and reverb and can put up with the mods but the drives just leave me cold. I've done a lot of gigs with them because I had to but every time I hit a chord with more than a root and a 5th I just hated it. 

@willo ; ... from an engineers point of view the biggest ball ache with modellers is yes, we can DI them as quick as shoving a mic in front of them but, if the previous band had a real amp (which 90% of them do in my line of work) then the on stage sound of the amp isn't there anymore and now everyone needs a lot more  of the guitar in their wedge or they won't hear any guitar at all. 
With a real amp you just move the previous guys amp, put the new guys amp there and turn it up to the same PFL and there's a great baseline in seconds for everybody. 

If you are are using a modeller with a PA speaker then it's kind of pointless to a certain extent. Certainly from an equipment count point of view. I don't get that at all. 

A lot of changeovers are 15 mins and a lot of that is taken up with moving breakables on the kit, changing over left to right handed kit arrangements .. plumbing in radio mic transmitters so the singer has the freedom to move 1 metre each side the mic stand, patching in IEM's, SPD's, guitar synth outputs. 

Essentially the drums have acoustic volume. If everybody as a real amp then there's the acoustic backline volume. The band can sound balanced without a PA. Then you add in everything else, reinforce with the PA and it sounds great. 

I'm not anti tech ... been using digital desks since 2008 and gigged a Tonelab modeller from 2003 to 2007 but it's not a magical solution and has no real advantage over a real amp except space in the van. 

thomasw88

equalsql said:

thomasw88 said:

...
 I don't think the digital drives on the modellers compare to analog drive pedals.  I've found that with the line 6, Boss, Fractal etc effects, even had a couple of Strymon Sunsets.       They just  weren't anywhere as good as what I have on my board.  Delays,  modulations, compressers, eq etc are all perfectly usable in the main, although I haven't found a modeller tremolo which can get close to a strymon mobius or flint etc.

I have to agree with your opinion on the drives not being great. I use a HX Effects and love the modulation and delay effects but use my own drive pedals via the send and return routings on the device. 

I really tried with the Helix drives.   But for example, the Rat and the Timmy which are two of my favourite drive pedals on my other board -  I took them to band practice with the helix and put them in one of the loops.  The helix equivalents were nowhere as nice.  I then  compared the two Helix rats to a cheapo Joyo Rat pedal (cost me about £28)  and the Joyo blew them out the water.  I  loved a lot about the helix but its too big to use as a glorified pedal board especially if I have to add in some drive pedals.   It was the same with the Boss GT & GX modellers, for which I preferred the drives to the helix but still not close to the 'real' thing.  I also found that with the Fractal FX8 - although that is old tech now.,..

Saying that I did download a capture of a Barber Direct Drive onto my Tonex one, and in stomp mode that actually sounds pretty good.  used it a couple of gigs as a drive pedal and it doesn't sound shit.   So there is hope..

If Strymon made a  multi effects that cover delays, modulations, reverb, had about 4 or 5 footswitches, and 3 or 4 loops in it for drive pedals/amp modeller thingy (tonex etc)  I would be in heaven.

willo

Danny1969 said:

equalsql said:

thomasw88 said:

...
 I don't think the digital drives on the modellers compare to analog drive pedals.  I've found that with the line 6, Boss, Fractal etc effects, even had a couple of Strymon Sunsets.       They just  weren't anywhere as good as what I have on my board.  Delays,  modulations, compressers, eq etc are all perfectly usable in the main, although I haven't found a modeller tremolo which can get close to a strymon mobius or flint etc.

I have to agree with your opinion on the drives not being great. I use a HX Effects and love the modulation and delay effects but use my own drive pedals via the send and return routings on the device. 

I feel the same, the digital drives just sound terrible to my ears. I love digital delay and reverb and can put up with the mods but the drives just leave me cold. I've done a lot of gigs with them because I had to but every time I hit a chord with more than a root and a 5th I just hated it. 

@willo ; ... from an engineers point of view the biggest ball ache with modellers is yes, we can DI them as quick as shoving a mic in front of them but, if the previous band had a real amp (which 90% of them do in my line of work) then the on stage sound of the amp isn't there anymore and now everyone needs a lot more  of the guitar in their wedge or they won't hear any guitar at all. 
With a real amp you just move the previous guys amp, put the new guys amp there and turn it up to the same PFL and there's a great baseline in seconds for everybody. 

If you are are using a modeller with a PA speaker then it's kind of pointless to a certain extent. Certainly from an equipment count point of view. I don't get that at all. 

A lot of changeovers are 15 mins and a lot of that is taken up with moving breakables on the kit, changing over left to right handed kit arrangements .. plumbing in radio mic transmitters so the singer has the freedom to move 1 metre each side the mic stand, patching in IEM's, SPD's, guitar synth outputs. 

Essentially the drums have acoustic volume. If everybody as a real amp then there's the acoustic backline volume. The band can sound balanced without a PA. Then you add in everything else, reinforce with the PA and it sounds great. 

I'm not anti tech ... been using digital desks since 2008 and gigged a Tonelab modeller from 2003 to 2007 but it's not a magical solution and has no real advantage over a real amp except space in the van. 

@Danny1969 I hear you.

When I was younger, touring, rehearsal studio with storage, recording studios booked, soundchecks and decent stagetimes, had a van etc - valve amps worked well then. I still have my JCM.

Now I'm older - I play more at home, gigs are sporadic and smaller, and I'm often trying to get a take down late at night (what I am doing/supposed to be doing now) whilst the kids are asleep.

I would assume the JCM sounds better because...its a JCM, but the vast gulf in utility for me beats the smaller bump in tone.

20 year old me would disagree with this.:)

On Helix - I'm fine with the drives and my Tim, Nobels etc haven't replaced it. But the modulations - personally I find these the weak spot. Nothing like a Boss Dimension in there, and the phasers sound flat to me.

Stinkfoot

I've been on the digital/real amp merry-go-round since the Helix Floor first came out.
Had most version of the Helix since then and have periodically switched back to valve amps/analogue pedals in-between.

My most recent switch back to valves was with a Victory V40. Nice amp, but for supposedly a 'pedal platform' I had a hell of a time finding the right drive pedals that actually suited it and sounded good. It seemed quite 'fussy' to me.

For the last few months I've been using a Quad Cortex through a Fender FR-10 which I tend to have to the side of me on it's tilt-back legs angled across the stage. DI to FoH from the Quad. We're an 11-piece and generally have good monitoring where we play (mix of wedges and in-ears across the band) and for me this has been the most consistent gig-to-gig sound I've had for ages.

As far as the drives go I think it behaves just like the 'real world' in that not all pedal models sound good through all amp models. But once you've got a good match I honestly can't hear or feel the difference between the digital versions and what I was using on my more traditional set-up. Especially in the mix of a full band.

As has been said, it's not really a space-saver if bringing your own cab to monitor yourself, but for me I've just had better results and easier set-ups with the sound guys since I've gone digital again.
But 'horses for courses' and all that and I'm not too daft to rule out a dabble with valve/analogue tech again.

At the end of the day, if playing through your gear makes you smile and doesn't piss off the band/sound guys, then it kinda doesn't matter what you're using. There's a wonderful range of options out there for us these days.

TTBZ

For playing at home I love the convenience of digital, I just use free NAM captures and they sound/feel great. Since I just play in front of the computer anyway I can have it all set up with backing tracks, YouTube etc ready to go. I have a Reaper project set up with different tracks/captures for clean/edge/rhythm/lead though could do with a midi pedal to switch between them. I think if I ever join a band again I might start with a full-fat ToneX pedal and see how I get on. I prefer the workflow of models rather than captures, but captures seem to sound and feel more realistic.

I was going to get a loadbox and use my real amp in the same way but it's a faff and doesn't seem worth it when I'm running everything through IRs and headphones anyway.

motorhead

Home noodler here, spent years chasing tone and getting mostly annoyed at the clutter, volume levels and general faff. Amplitube 5 Max was my tipping point. Got a little Yamaha THR for couch playing, and have downloaded some pretty cool settings from ToneNet for when on desktop or laptop.
Waved goodbye to a Victory V40 and load of pedals over a year ago and don't ever see myself going back to that world.

thomasw88

motorhead said:

Home noodler here, spent years chasing tone and getting mostly annoyed at the clutter, volume levels and general faff. Amplitube 5 Max was my tipping point. Got a little Yamaha THR for couch playing, and have downloaded some pretty cool settings from ToneNet for when on desktop or laptop.
Waved goodbye to a Victory V40 and load of pedals over a year ago and don't ever see myself going back to that world.

I think for home playing modellers sound fantastic.   If I wasn't gigging and was only playing at home then I'd 100% go full in modelling or get a katana etc.  The problem is that setting up a bunch of sounds at home and then putting that in a full band situation doesn't work (for me anyway).   

ColWilkie

Thanks again, really interesting hearing everyone's experience.  

I'm still impressed with the Tonex Friedman captures, however going back to my actual amp there's just a subtle difference in feeling - especially when using some drive pedals in front.  Having said that, it is subtle, the gap is closing for sure!  The sound itself is excellent and it's great for jamming at my desktop.  When playing through my amp I tend to sit away from my desk and use my RC-5 looper, but it's not the same experience.  Also thought about a loadbox etc but I think I'd rather then spend the money on QC or similar and have both options.

The resale on amps appears to be rather poor right now, so I don't think I'd be changing anything.  I'll continue experimenting with plugins for the time being and maybe add some hardware down the line.

One thing, my speakers are probably not the best.  I have used my headphones (Beyerdynamic DT700 ProX) and they are really good, but I prefer not being so isolated.  Might look to upgrade from the iLoud mini speakers to something more substantial.  I've had the HS8's with my Kemper, and they were a bit much, so something in between would likely improve things.  Don't have room treatment in place, and I don't really want to go down that route for the time being.

Heartfeltdawn

The speaker upgrade will help. I found 8" to be too much at home levels, 5" is my sweet spot. I have a set of Adam F5s and Kali IN-5s. Bass on the Kalis is fabulous, top end slightly better on the Adams. 

ColWilkie

Heartfeltdawn said:

The speaker upgrade will help. I found 8" to be too much at home levels, 5" is my sweet spot. I have a set of Adam F5s and Kali IN-5s. Bass on the Kalis is fabulous, top end slightly better on the Adams. 

That’s good to know thanks mate.  My room is a decent size but still found them a bit much and moved them on.  I’ll check these out.   

mrleon83

I used a fractal fm3 (with a fender fr12) for gigs for two and a half years. It was great and I like being able to record at lower volumes but I’d say have both!

After giving notice to the band I went on a bit of a shopping spree , first thing was a valve amp and I realised I’d been missing so much! there really isn’t anything better than being able to just plug guitar into amp the simplicity and sound are just such a joy.

at the same time the fm3 is going nowhere when I get into a new band I’ve got no intention of using an amp as it adds a layer of complexity and reliance upon the sound guy.  The sound is just so consistent 

ColWilkie

mrleon83 said:

I used a fractal fm3 (with a fender fr12) for gigs for two and a half years. It was great and I like being able to record at lower volumes but I’d say have both!

After giving notice to the band I went on a bit of a shopping spree , first thing was a valve amp and I realised I’d been missing so much! there really isn’t anything better than being able to just plug guitar into amp the simplicity and sound are just such a joy.

at the same time the fm3 is going nowhere when I get into a new band I’ve got no intention of using an amp as it adds a layer of complexity and reliance upon the sound guy.  The sound is just so consistent 

This is good to hear.  I really think this is where I will land, holding onto what I already have and perhaps adding something like the FM3 alongside to have the variety.  I have been jumping between plugins and my amp over the last couple weeks and like things about both of them.  I guess there is no need to fully commit one way or another - using both as tools seems the way to go!