Cable Capacitance, Buffers and Cable Length ?

ThePrettyDamned

ICBM said:

strtdv said:

The boss tuner is likely to have major tone suck.

No, it's a very good buffer - as is the older TU-2 - you may be thinking of the non-pedal TU-12 etc which do indeed suck tone very badly if left in line.

I was going to say, I found the boss tuner buffer to be fine. 

The only bad ones are the SD-1 (which leaks a bit if you're unlucky - fixed by putting behind another buffer) and I've heard if you stack several in a row, there is a cumulative loss of volume (not high frequency) which translates as tone suck, because the buffer is just a smidge under unity. 

Which is a shame, because I could very nearly have an all Boss board - Tuner, OD-3, DS-2, Ds-1x or DA-2, CE-3, DD-3. That would actually pretty much cover all my needs. 

Dave_Mc

^ I can normally notice it even with the one boss pedal. Admittedly, it's not enough of a loss to be worrying about with just the one, but it doesn't sound quite the same as straight into the amp, either.

strtdv said:

-Try each pedal individually and compare it with the sound of your guitar straight into your amp. Find the ones which suck the most tone, and buy a true bypass loop to run them in, so you only actually have them in the signal path when you use them.

I'd also try the entire chain as well- as @ThePrettyDamned rightly said, the Boss buffers (and some other companies' too) are a bit under unity gain, so you might not notice it with one, while you might notice it with 5 in a row.

Also I'd say it depends on what's causing the tone suck- in most cases if it's a bad buffer then the true bypass loop is probably the easiest way to fix it (apart from the SD1), but if it's half-assed bypass a buffer in front should fix that as well.

You also need to watch because some pedals like fuzz faces don't like having a buffer in front of them.

The "not worrying" thing... I sort of agree and disagree at the same time. ) You can definitely worry way too much about this stuff, and you can definitely make a case that if you don't notice, that it doesn't matter. At the same time, sometimes it can be shocking how different the straight-in tone is, even if you "didn't notice" it when you had your entire pedal chain plugged in. There's a fine line between "not worrying" and "sticking your head in the sand"...

ecc83 said:

Re buffer inside guitar:

Does not need to be. You can build a small unit to clip on a strap and connect to guitar with a very short cable, 300mm of cable is unlikely to have a capacitance of more than 30-50puff and that is half to a third of the inescapable C'in of a valve amp.

The op Z of an IC can be less than 100 Ohms or with a neat trick of Duggy Self's, next to bugger all. A bypass switch can be a simple DPDT since there is no way to get an earth loop.

Dave.

That's probably a better idea. And you'd just need one of them and could connect them to any guitars you had.

ICBM said:

strtdv said:

The boss tuner is likely to have major tone suck.

No, it's a very good buffer - as is the older TU-2 - you may be thinking of the non-pedal TU-12 etc which do indeed suck tone very badly if left in line.

Yeah aren't a few of the boss buffers meant to be actually pretty good? I think the TU2, as you said, had the rep of being one of the good ones. Maybe the LS2 as well? Not sure, I've never tested them. )

strtdv

Sorry, my boss comment was based on a ds1 and I think an sd1, haven't used the tuner.

As @Dave_Mc rightly says, you need to watch out for some pedals not playing nice with buffers. Fuzz faces need to go first in the chain, and I've found buffers change the tone of some distortions as well (OCD springs to mind).

Dave_Mc

^ Now you mention it I think I've heard that about the OCD. I haven't tried the real thing myself, but I have the cheapo joyo version. Can't say I've noticed- but I don't use it all that much and I haven't ever A/Bed it with a buffer in front and without. )

NervousJohn

Dave_Mc;407008" said:

^ Now you mention it I think I've heard that about the OCD. I haven't tried the real thing myself, but I have the cheapo joyo version. Can't say I've noticed- but I don't use it all that much and I haven't ever A/Bed it with a buffer in front and without. )

The Joyo OCD has an integral buffer. I believe some of the early ones didn't but mine (from 2012) certainly does. If the button says "bypass" only there is a buffer.

Also Boss TU-3 buffers sound fine.

Dave_Mc

NervousJohn said:

The Joyo OCD has an integral buffer. I believe some of the early ones didn't but mine (from 2012) certainly does. If the button says "bypass" only there is a buffer.

Thanks. I always wondered why it didn't say "true bypass" like the other ones. That makes more sense, since I didn't notice any tone suck with it (I was wondering if they'd cheaped out on that one and made it half-assed).

I guess did they do it so it didn't sound different if there was a buffered pedal in front of it?

Also kind of funny how sometimes the cheapies think of things the boutique guys don't (assuming that's why they did it).

strtdv

Also probably because it might be cheaper to put a cheap buffer in a pedal than a decent tpdt footswitch in it

mart

NervousJohn said:

The Joyo OCD has an integral buffer. I believe some of the early ones didn't but mine (from 2012) certainly does. If the button says "bypass" only there is a buffer.
...

Er, I'd always assumed the "true bypass" text on the joyo pedal was just bullshit, and that it was buffered. I haven't seen any gutshots, so this is just instinct. But I'd be very surprised if joyo revised the circuit on their OCD clone for any reasons other than cheapness of manufacture.

ICBM

NervousJohn said:

The Joyo OCD has an integral buffer. I believe some of the early ones didn't but mine (from 2012) certainly does. If the button says "bypass" only there is a buffer.

Surely that's the worst of both worlds? Mechanical switch unreliability and potentially tone-colouring buffer…

(I'm far more concerned about the mechanical switching, by the way.)

strtdv said:

Also probably because it might be cheaper to put a cheap buffer in a pedal than a decent tpdt footswitch in it

No such thing as a decent 3PDT.

It absolutely baffles me that after all the trouble Boss and others went to in the late 70s to replace unreliable, click-prone mechanical switching with a proper electronic switching system, that nowadays "true bypass" is considered the holy grail of switching in spite of reintroducing all the same problems. OK, it's true that Boss didn't use a perfect buffer… but the solution to that is to do so, not to go back to the old method.

In fact I think one of the reasons true bypass has been so heavily promoted is that for a small builder, it's actually cheaper (and certainly easier) to just fit a 3PDT than it is to design and build a decent buffer.

Dave_Mc

^ Are DPDT switches any better? I've heard rumours that they might be slightly more reliable, but that could well be internet BS.

I agree regarding the "just make a better buffer" argument (and also that it takes less work to wire up a 3PDT than to wire in a buffer and implement soft switching) and in a sensible world that's what would happen, but the problem is Boss has had 30 years to improve said buffer and hasn't. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but in the real world it looks like the odds of any of the big effects manufacturers putting a decent buffer into their soft-switching pedals (Digitech ones aren't great either) are slim to non-existent.

The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Visual Sound, and its pedals are kind of an awkward shape, plus dearish in Europe compared to Boss etc. (and also what they go for in the USA). I guess the Digitech/Hardwire delay and reverb might get an honourable mention, since they do true bypass or buffered with soft switching, but then the buffer (at least in my delay) is kind of crappy. It seemed to be well below unity, even with the one pedal.

I'd far rather use a (good) buffer with soft-switching than true bypass with unreliable switching, but that doesn't seem to be an option with most manufacturers. Eventually you come to the point where (for some people at least) it's handier to just use true bypass.

ICBM said:

Surely that's the worst of both worlds? Mechanical switch unreliability and potentially tone-colouring buffer…

(I'm far more concerned about the mechanical switching, by the way.)

Didn't do the desirability of the klon any harm

(Seriously, though, agreed.)

strtdv said:

Also probably because it might be cheaper to put a cheap buffer in a pedal than a decent tpdt footswitch in it

mart said:

Er, I'd always assumed the "true bypass" text on the joyo pedal was just bullshit, and that it was buffered. I haven't seen any gutshots, so this is just instinct. But I'd be very surprised if joyo revised the circuit on their OCD clone for any reasons other than cheapness of manufacture.

Maybe, but then why are all the other ones true bypass? If they did it to all their pedals, I'd be inclined to agree. You can also implement true bypass with a dpdt, at least as far as I'm aware. I'm not sure about Joyo (I can't remember), but I think Biyang (another cheapy) does that.

ICBM

Dave_Mc said:

^ Are DPDT switches any better? I've heard rumours that they might be slightly more reliable, but that could well be internet BS.

The old heavy-duty ones are. The modern ones that are about the same size as a 3PDT or smaller aren't.

Dave_Mc said:

I agree regarding the "just make a better buffer" argument (and also that it takes less work to wire up a 3PDT than to wire in a buffer and implement soft switching) and in a sensible world that's what would happen, but the problem is Boss has had 30 years to improve said buffer and hasn't. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but in the real world it looks like the odds of any of the big effects manufacturers putting a decent buffer into their soft-switching pedals (Digitech ones aren't great either) are slim to non-existent.

Agreed, unfortunately.

Boss have also had thirty years to simply improve the quality of the chips in the GE-7 to cure the hiss problem - which entails no redesign whatever - and haven't.

Dave_Mc said:

Didn't do the desirability of the klon any harm

Actually it did, but the other way round! Some people complained that it wasn't true bypass - hence the switch on the new version.

Dave_Mc said:

You can also implement true bypass with a dpdt, at least as far as I'm aware. I'm not sure about Joyo (I can't remember), but I think Biyang (another cheapy) does that.

Yes, even with an LED. Proco did it first with the RATII - it uses the output impedance of the effect circuit to operate a separate transistor switch which turns the LED off when the pedal is bypassed. (Also called 'Millenium bypass'.) But it also needs a bit of extra circuitry so it isn't widely used - even Proco have stopped, possibly because the reliability of modern DPDTs is now no greater than 3PDTs anyway, or possibly because people wouldn't believe it was true bypass without a 3PDT, I don't know.

TheMarlin

I run 40-50ft of cable, excluding pedal patch cable.

I play Gretsch guitars 90% of the time, these are inherently bright guitars.  To compensate for the tone loss, I use quality cable and a Nocturne Atomic Brain pre amp pedal at the start of the chain (which emulates the pre amp stage of a RE 301 Space Echo), it boost the tone, adds a little grind (if required), and pushes past the cable loading issues.

 

To me, and into my Tone King Imperial (or preferable, my Omega (heavily) modded HR Deluxe), the tone is just spectacular.  No buffers

Marlin

ThePrettyDamned

TheMarlin;407843" said:

I run 40-50ft of cable, excluding pedal patch cable.

I play Gretsch guitars 90% of the time, these are inherently bright guitars.  To compensate for the tone loss, I use quality cable and a Nocturne Atomic Brain pre amp pedal at the start of the chain (which emulates the pre amp stage of a RE 301 Space Echo), it boost the tone, adds a little grind (if required), and pushes past the cable loading issues. To me, and into my Tone King Imperial (or preferable, my Omega (heavily) modded HR Deluxe), the tone is just spectacular.  No buffers

Marlin

Surely having the preamp on is a buffer?

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

Dave_Mc said:

^ Are DPDT switches any better? I've heard rumours that they might be slightly more reliable, but that could well be internet BS.

(a) The old heavy-duty ones are. The modern ones that are about the same size as a 3PDT or smaller aren't.

Dave_Mc said:

I agree regarding the "just make a better buffer" argument (and also that it takes less work to wire up a 3PDT than to wire in a buffer and implement soft switching) and in a sensible world that's what would happen, but the problem is Boss has had 30 years to improve said buffer and hasn't. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but in the real world it looks like the odds of any of the big effects manufacturers putting a decent buffer into their soft-switching pedals (Digitech ones aren't great either) are slim to non-existent.

(b) Agreed, unfortunately.

Boss have also had thirty years to simply improve the quality of the chips in the GE-7 to cure the hiss problem - which entails no redesign whatever - and haven't.

Dave_Mc said:

Didn't do the desirability of the klon any harm

(c) Actually it did, but the other way round! Some people complained that it wasn't true bypass - hence the switch on the new version.

Dave_Mc said:

You can also implement true bypass with a dpdt, at least as far as I'm aware. I'm not sure about Joyo (I can't remember), but I think Biyang (another cheapy) does that.

(d) Yes, even with an LED. Proco did it first with the RATII - it uses the output impedance of the effect circuit to operate a separate transistor switch which turns the LED off when the pedal is bypassed. (Also called 'Millenium bypass'.) But it also needs a bit of extra circuitry so it isn't widely used - even Proco have stopped, possibly because the reliability of modern DPDTs is now no greater than 3PDTs anyway, or possibly because people wouldn't believe it was true bypass without a 3PDT, I don't know.

(a) Interesting, thanks.

(b) Yeah )

I guess they figure "If it's not broke, don't fix it." Definition of "broke" being "affecting sales".

I guess on the one hand it's hard to blame them. On another, it's kind of infuriating how close they get to "great", but not quite.

(c) LOL, now you mention it, that probably does explain the little switch on the new one.

(d) Yeah. I think RG Keen's Geofex site describes how "millenium bypass" works. I read it once I think. I think Voodoo Labs uses it too (or maybe "used", for the same reasons you described for why ProCo stopped ) ).

mart

Dave_Mc said:

Maybe, but then why are all the other ones true bypass? If they did it to all their pedals, I'd be inclined to agree. You can also implement true bypass with a dpdt, at least as far as I'm aware. ...

Fair point, but are all their other pedals true bypass? Or is it again just that they thought printing that text on the enclosure would help sales?

ICBM

ThePrettyDamned said:

TheMarlin said:

I run 40-50ft of cable, excluding pedal patch cable.

I play Gretsch guitars 90% of the time, these are inherently bright guitars.  To compensate for the tone loss, I use quality cable and a Nocturne Atomic Brain pre amp pedal at the start of the chain (which emulates the pre amp stage of a RE 301 Space Echo), it boost the tone, adds a little grind (if required), and pushes past the cable loading issues. To me, and into my Tone King Imperial (or preferable, my Omega (heavily) modded HR Deluxe), the tone is just spectacular.  No buffers

Marlin

Surely having the preamp on is a buffer?

Yes, assuming it has a low output impedance. Not always a certainty if the circuit is very primitive and/or the last component in the circuit is a volume pot (eg something like an EH LPB-1), but from an 'unofficial' layout I could find for this one it will be.

The same is true of any always-on pedal.

Dave_Mc

mart said:

Dave_Mc said:

Maybe, but then why are all the other ones true bypass? If they did it to all their pedals, I'd be inclined to agree. You can also implement true bypass with a dpdt, at least as far as I'm aware. ...

Fair point, but are all their other pedals true bypass? Or is it again just that they thought printing that text on the enclosure would help sales?

I think they are, but don't quote me on that. I'm sure a bunch of the DIY types have reverse-engineered at least some of the Joyos, and they didn't flag up that they weren't true bypass (I don't think so, anyway). Not conclusive, obviously, but it's all I've got. )

ICBM said:

Yes, assuming it has a low output impedance.

Just out of interest, what qualifies as a low output impedance? I'm guessing in the low kOhm range?

ICBM

Dave_Mc said:

Just out of interest, what qualifies as a low output impedance? I'm guessing in the low kOhm range?

Yes. There's no exact definition, but for guitar-type signals I would say anything under 10Kohms is low enough for most practical purposes. That will handle any feasible length of cable and most normal tone-sucking 'half bypass' pedals after it. 1Kohm or better is definitely low.

Dave_Mc

Thanks.

TheMarlin

ICBM said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

TheMarlin said:

I run 40-50ft of cable, excluding pedal patch cable.

I play Gretsch guitars 90% of the time, these are inherently bright guitars.  To compensate for the tone loss, I use quality cable and a Nocturne Atomic Brain pre amp pedal at the start of the chain (which emulates the pre amp stage of a RE 301 Space Echo), it boost the tone, adds a little grind (if required), and pushes past the cable loading issues. To me, and into my Tone King Imperial (or preferable, my Omega (heavily) modded HR Deluxe), the tone is just spectacular.  No buffers

Marlin

Surely having the preamp on is a buffer?

Yes, assuming it has a low output impedance. Not always a certainty if the circuit is very primitive and/or the last component in the circuit is a volume pot (eg something like an EH LPB-1), but from an 'unofficial' layout I could find for this one it will be.

The same is true of any always-on pedal.

It's a pre amp.  An old pre amp, reworked for modern applications.  It not a buffer, but does have an effect on impedance loading. What's more important is that it sounds awesome.  It really perks up picking dynamics, and makes for a more fingertippy sound.  Its sort of the polar opposite of a compressor pedal.

M